Twice As Many Americans Think Confederate Monuments “Should Remain In All Public Spaces” As Believe They “Should Be Removed From All Public Spaces”

A new Reuters/Ipsos opinion poll finds finds that twice as many Americans want to keep Confederate monuments in public spaces as want to remove them:

The Aug. 18-21 poll found that 54 percent of adults said Confederate monuments “should remain in all public spaces” while 27 percent said they “should be removed from all public spaces.” Another 19 percent said they “don’t know.”

Postscript: Do you agree or disagree with the majority opinion? Let us know.

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  • Michael

    Hi,
    I‘m living in Hamburg/Germany. Here we have a war memorial glorifying WW1 with a relief of marching soldiers and inscriptions like „Germany must live even if we have to die!“ – we call it “blog of war” built by the Nazis in 1936 (see pics at
    http://denkmalhamburg.de/76er-denkmal-dammtor/).
    It wasn’t destroyed after WW2 in 1945. In the 1970ies the war memorial was heavily discussed and in the 1980ies the Senat (local government of Hamburg) asked the sculptor Alfred Hrdlicka (1928-2009) from Vienna to build a counter-memorial in front of it (see pics at
    http://denkmalhamburg.de/gegendenkmal-von-alfred-hrdlicka/).
    This ensemble is quite impressive ( see pics at
    http://www.gedenkstaetten-in-hamburg.de/gedenkstaetten/gedenkort/gegendenkmal-zum-so-genannten-76er-denkmal/)
    and it shows what is the result of war and what war is good for – absolutely nothing!
    Perhaps this could be an idea to solve your problem.
    Michael

    • Michael
      • hyperbola

        A nice suggestion. And probably one which could be “accepted” by both “extremes”. Of course, it requires decoupling these things from “national political manipulations” and constructing agreements at local levels.
        Vielen Dank.

        I errinere mich einmal einen zimmer en Kroatien mit ein ehemalige Deutsche Soldat verteilt zu haben – das Dorf war ueberscwemmit mit Touristen. Er erklarte mich dass er wusste das Deutschland das Krieg (WW2) verlieren wurde wenn seine Truppe einen Amerikanische barracke eroberte – beim fluchten hatten die Amerikanern bis auf Schokoladenkuchen verlassen. Er war stolz auf die Deutsche Soldaten (“mit aehnliche Besorgung hatten wir gewonnen”!) aber einverstanden dass es besser war die Nazis verschwinden su lassen.
        (Entschuldigung: zu viele Jahren ohne Deutsch su sprechen!).

  • heysailor!

    We shouldn’t keep monuments to traitors to America who fought to try to preserve slavery. We are a better country than that. These monuments were not built right after the Civil War; most were not erected until at least several decades later, during the Jim Crow era. Many were built in black areas of town with the express aim of humiliating blacks and reminding them that the white man would always be on top. Some were built at the locations of former slave auctions. These polls are worthless and it’s all in how the question is framed: A majority of Americans polled at one recent time were opposed to many of the Bill of Rights guarantees.

    • sometime

      I’m not supporting slavery. I do want to point out it was the Black’s that enslaved themselves. THey rounded their own kind up in Africa, imprisoned their own and sold their own off to slave traders….if they in Africa had been considerate of themselves and not done this the slave problem in America would not have happened….the black’s themselves have to do some soul searching and realize this of themselves…..doesn’t make the situation and simpler but at least honesty is involved in the tomorrows of our land.

      • nomadd

        case in point

      • ICFubar

        The slave traders you mention were European whites who used a divide and conquer strategy against Africans to supply their hellish commerce. ‘Amazing Grace’ anyone? In America the indigenous people were first enslaved but they wouldn’t work and died in captivity. Then whites were tried but they easily succumbed to diseases they had little inherited immunity to. Finally a solution to this problem was found in enslaving Africans.

        If you are going to recite history please try and get it correct instead of just putting your own racial tinted biases out there.

        • sometime

          I am correct. If the blacks in Africa had said no to the white European slave traders and not captured and imprisoned their own people…there would not have been the black slavery in America. And what is it you don’t understand of that?

          • nomadd

            you are talking nonsense. slavery was a widespread practice among both blacks and whites in antiquity. the new world slavery practiced by whites was fundamentally different in its color based dehumanization. they call it chattel slavery and it was primarily practiced by whites.

          • sometime

            this is not antiquity. it’s latter 1700’s to mid 1800’s…what I said is not nonsense. Blacks imprisoned their own people in Africa, to sell as slaves….Simple isn’t it…

          • nomadd

            oh its simple all right. like i said before. case in point.

          • cityspeak

            So the parent who sells their child to pornographers is to blame and not the pornographers that make a profit from it or the consumers of child pornography that are the economic engine for child pornography?

            Got it!

            Thanks.

          • KilltheBank

            Thats stupid.

            They BOTH deserve the blame, moron.

          • LostInTheStars

            You seem to be arguing that there would have been no slavery in America if Black slave owners in Africa had refused to sell their slaves to Northern slave traders. That is patent nonsense. America already had American Indian slaves and even white slaves.
            Exactly what is the moral difference between a slave owner and a slave trader? And how does the fact that some African Blacks enslaved some other African Blacks lead you to the conclusion that slavery was really caused by Black people who were enslaving themselves?

          • sometime

            I did not say, slavery was caused by Black people who were enslaving themselves. I said, black people in Africa, imprisoned their own, for selling to slave traders………AND….had they not imprisoned their own, black slavery in America would not have been…..you need not twist what I said.

          • LostInTheStars

            What you said was (perhaps unintentionally) racist.

          • sometime

            I see what you are saying. and no! I’m not racist. My entire 72 yrs have been spent among native American Indians.also..American soldiers in Nam, 1969, when I was there, did not get into racial squabbles…that I ever was aware of.
            I’m a Montana native. There is racism here against the American Indians, I can tell you that…..
            also, others must be reading my statement of Africa, in much the manner you point out. I’m getting lots of squishy boots upon my body…..for saying, African’s imprisoned themselves for sale to slave traders…..That’s a fact….but boy, few readers of it….take it for just that.

          • LostInTheStars

            I disagreed with one comment you made (perhaps without thinking through it), but I do not not think you are are a racist. I suspect our values are fundamentally the same. So I wish you the best.

          • nomadd

            “unintentionally) racist.”
            oh thats the best kind.

          • KilltheBank

            Hahaha!!!

            “DAS RAYCISS!!!”

          • cityspeak

            Right because once Europe decided that the enslavement of Africans was an abomination the slave states in America were completely incapable of coming to the same moral and ethical conclusion.

            Your the man that on hearing of a brutal sexual assault asks what was she wearing?

          • KilltheBank

            Your the one who dismisses suffering of Whites because “privelege”, so dont even pretend youve shed a tear for Dusky Sally, you ridiculous fraud.

          • KilltheBank

            Its gotta be all Whiteys fault to this narcicistic retard.

        • KilltheBank

          (((European Whites, huh?)))

      • cityspeak

        So the parent who sells their child to pornographers is to blame and not the pornographers that make a profit from it or the consumers of child pornography that are the economic engine for child pornography?
        Got it!
        Thanks.

      • cityspeak

        So I’m certain when Master Beauregard was mounting, Sissy, his 14 year old slave girl, and she was crying for mercy he whispered in her ear,”you’ve no one to blame but your own people”
        As luck would have it Sissy was very fertile and Beauregard was able to sell her children at a high price. The girls that were “high yellow”fetched a better price as they were favored as concubines.

        Next tell us the stories as the worst Capos in death camps were fellow Jews. Can you imagine that? So are Nazis to blame for death camps or wasn’t it really other Jews that seemed so eager to brutalize their own people?
        Because systemic violence, trauma and terror are so complicated for some people to understand

        • KilltheBank

          Why?

          No one cares except you.

    • LostInTheStars

      The North did not invaded the South to end slavery. They invaded to force the South to pay tariffs on cheap British goods and force them to buy manufactured goods from Northern factories. Also to prevent the South from competing with the North in the westward expansion.

      • ICFubar

        There had been a warning given to the American political class when Andrew Jackson cancelled the charter of the Second Bank of America (the then central bank of the USA just as the Fed is today) that a disaster would befall America if the bank’s charter was not renewed.. Political cartoons of the day showed a John Bull type figure, representing Britain, driving a wedge into the eastern seaboard of continental America. While the causes of war are very complex this warning should also be taken into account as very large British and European financial powers had interests in the Second Bank of America. Also at this point the French had occupied Mexico as a threat and had to be driven out after the Civil War had ended.

      • cityspeak

        You mean buy goods that weren’t produced by slave labor? Why how UnAmerican!!
        My God were they fringing communist man?
        Was Putin involved? I bet he was. Damn him and his time machine.

        • LostInTheStars

          Actually those goods were produced by Irish immigrants who were wage slaves and didn’t have lives much better than the African slaves in the south. These Irish immigrants were also used as cannon fodder.

          • cityspeak

            I am well aware of the abuse of the Irish immigrants.
            As far as who had it worse I would ask:
            Did the Irish:
            own their children or could they be sold out under them for a profit that went to the seller?
            could they be exposed to whippings and beatings for “lazy behavior” or the bosses “bad erratic mood?
            could Irish wives be summoned to other men’s beds to service the whims and desires of the boss?
            was learning to read forbidden and in many cases punishable by law?
            could the Irish be abducted and sold in other part of the country under false clams that they were property of someone else and could be legally sold?

            Does this negate the suffering of the Irish coming here fleeing a British induced famine?
            No
            The Irish coming here in hopes of finding a better situation and finding more abuse at the hands of American elites.
            No

            I think there is a common enemy here but it isn’t Irish versus African.
            Hmmm I wonder what could be the source of all this human misery?

          • LostInTheStars

            The oppression of Irish immigrants was terrible, and slavery was even worse. But, let’s face it: The Civil War was not about slavery. It was about tariffs and the fear of competition as the country expanded westward. Confederate soldiers were not slave owners. They fought to defend their homeland from an invasion.
            .
            Lincoln considered Blacks to be an inferior race. He was against giving them equal rights, just as he was against intermarriage. He never freed a single slave. He wanted Blacks sent back to Africa or else relocated in Central America.

          • sometime

            you’re absolutely correct! Again, some of these readers refuse to get to the heart of our Civil War, other than the subject of slavery….they really should read all of Pres Lincoln’s writings…coming from his own mind and words and speaches….

          • cityspeak

            Let me fix this for you:
            You wrote : “Sovereign states who had the right to get out of the Union”
            States that wanted to continue buying and sell human beings like cattle, rape them, sell their children. steal their labor, profit from their skills and murder them without any legal consequence.
            You wrote: “Its a bit more complicated”
            More complicated because I refuse to discuss or contemplate the abject horror that was the slave trade in the South and the incomprehensible human misery that the slaves suffered due to it.

          • sometime

            get off your fu**n high horse there BuB…..you know damn well, I don’t support slavery. Never have. Get out of your hate pitty potty and get real. In so doing you just might save your own soul rather than damning people you don’t even know…..

          • cityspeak

            Fine but what is your point?
            Your counter arguments are:
            The civil war was about State’ Rights and and act of Northern aggression.
            False, as the Dread Scott decision expanded slavery into Western non slave States and the Fugitive slave laws required non slave states to return “loss property”.
            The northern states didn’t care at all about slavery. False, there was a very strong, well organized Abolition movement that saved its resources to enter the war at a crucial time to ensure the abolition of slavery after it was over.
            Lincoln was a tyrant violating state sovereignty. False, Lincoln saw his duty above all us was to preserve the Union he was entrusted with on taking office. He did some great and awful things to achieve this goal.

            All men and women are damned by the words that come out of their own mouths. No one has the power to damn another human being,

            I don’t wish you or anyone else any will ill.

          • sometime

            Nor do I wish ill will on anyone…you included. I have seen enough grief of what people do to each other, to last another whole life time. Being thrown into Nam, 23 yrs old, either get drafted or go to jail for not doing so, then the absolute carnage to those suffering people,of which the US did to them, and much suffering remains to this day right there in their own back yard…chemically polluted land and water, grievous birth defects caused by us chemicals…homes,businesses destroyed….and the good old usa just keeps right on going with another country, and another after that…..well, don’t be surprised if nuc’s go off in this land…if the US does not come to it’s senses and cease this destruction of countries and peoples nearly, seems, everywhere….generally speaking I;m an optimist. Am not that when our future comes to mind. Except for kennedy there has been one jerk after another sitting in the W house….I have no solution to the madness that has prevailed our land since the end of WW2…it’s been a long time…..live by the sword, die by the sword, is just what’s going to happen…..I’m afraid..very afraid….
            Cheers.

          • KilltheBank

            Dumbass White guilt liberal faggot.

          • cityspeak

            Funny how historical facts and context bring out your homophobia.

            You must soil yourself when passing by a library.

          • KilltheBank

            HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

            “MUH EDUCATION!!!”

            No one is “phobic” of disease spreading faggots, only disgusted, you snobby dumbass.

            Stop preaching muh education when you spend your days serving coffee and fries through a window, loser!!!

          • cityspeak

            Confederate soldiers were convinced by the the Southern Elites that the end of slavery would deny them any chance of future prosperity and wealth.
            It would also threaten their own livelihoods as freed blacks would be competing for wages and they would flood the labor market. The elites framed it this way to convince the younger poorer Southerners to fight.
            Wait, what? Rich people convincing poor people to go and fight their wars for them?

            The fact that Lincoln held racial biases that were common of the era don’t make them justified or correct.

            Once again please read or listen to this historian’s work.
            https://sundown.tougaloo.edu

          • LostInTheStars

            Southern soldiers were cannon fodder for the southern elites. Northern soldiers were cannon fodder for the northern elites. Everything else is chauvinistic flag waving and propaganda.
            As in all wars it boils down to rich, elitist old men playing chess with live pawns as they try to get even richer.

            ps. Your link doesn’t work.

          • cityspeak

            Try this.

            https://sundown.tougaloo.edu

            It is strange because I just checked the link and it took me to the site.

          • LostInTheStars

            The top of the page says “Oops, something has gone very wrong” – but looking again I see a description about Loewen’s book on the Confederacy. I know his work. In fact I gave a copy of LIES MY TEACHER TAUGHT ME to my grandson a couple of years ago.

            It is true that the declarations of Mississippi and South Carolina stated that slavery was the main reason for the succession. I give you that. But these declarations were written by the aristocracy, who were all slave owners. Footsoldiers for the South had nothing to gain from slavery. Slaves were taking away jobs that they could have been paid for. Slavery was not why southern soldiers fought or even why Robert E. Lee became their general. And, according to no less an authority than Abraham Lincoln, slavery was not the main reason (or any reason at all) for why the North invaded the South.

          • ZARTAN

            Living in the Past will only Ensure a Miserable Future.

          • KilltheBank

            Blah blah, racism, blah blah oppression…..

            Youve really got nothin so lay off the dead horse.

            NO ONE CARES.

            YOUR RACE CARD IS PERMANENTLY REVOKED!!!

          • KilltheBank

            Cant argue against duh uh presst.
            Its all racism all the time.

        • KilltheBank
      • heysailor!

        Go ahead and invent your own history but the facts differ. Starting in South Carolina, the South committed treason by taking up arms against the United States to keep slavery and allow it to expand as provided for in the Missouri Compromise.

        The monuments to traitors were erected during the Jim Crow era, sometimes where slave auctions had been conducted and usually in black areas, to humiliate, intimidate, and remind blacks that the white man was always going to be in charge.

        • LostInTheStars

          Robert E. Lee freed his slaves three years before the Civil War b began. His state of Virginia seceded AFTER Lincoln gave the order to invade the South.

          South Carolina took up arms and committed treason? No one was killed or injured at Fort Sumter. Their declaration mentions slavery several times but it was written by wealthy plantation owners. South Carolinian soldiers fought simply because their homeland had been invaded. They would have had far more job opportunities if slavery had not existed.

          The North invaded the South for economic reasons – to force the South to pay high tariffs on manufactured goods from Britain so that they would have to buy these goods at a higher price from northern manufacturers. Lincoln had no intentions of freeing the Black slaves, whom he considered to be an inferior race that should be sent to Africa or Central America. When the war began he was supporting a proposed Constitutional amendment that would have made slavery legal.

          And I ain’t no racist. As a young adult back in the 60s I was a civil rights worker.

          • heysailor!

            Keep believing your revisionist history. Robert E. Lee kept slaves for years after his father-in-law’s will decreed that they be freed upon his death. Lee’s own writings indicated that, as late as 1852, he contemplated buying more slaves. Then he cast aside his oath to support and defend the Constitution and took up arms against it using a military mind developed at West Point.

            The Atlantic magazine reviewed all the Confederate declarations of secession. The common theme was the states were seceding in order to preserve slavery. It doesn’t matter who wrote the declarations. To the extent that the North “invaded” the South it was to preserve the Union. South Carolina was but the first to secede, firing cannon at Fort Sumter until the Federal garrison surrendered.

            Lincoln is a complex person; his views evolved, but he is the greatest of American presidents.

            I find it hard to believe you were a civil rights worker in the 60’s; at least in terms of working for civil rights so that African-Americans can enjoy the benefits of citizenship on an equal level with whites after Southern states TO THIS DAY expend considerable effort to keep that from happening.

          • LostInTheStars

            Let me first make it clear that if I had been alive at the time I would have been an abolitionist. I abhor slavery, just as I abhor Jim Crow, just as I now abhor police violence against Black neighborhoods and the crime of driving while Black .

            But look at these Lincoln quotes from his Collected Works:

            “Free them [i.e. the slaves] and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this . . . . We cannot then make them equals” (CW, vol. II, p. 256.

            “What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races” (CW, vol. II, p. 521).

            “I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races . . . . I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong, having the superior position. I have never said anything to the contrary” (CW, vol. III, p, 16). (Has there ever been a clearer definition of “white supremacist”?).

            “I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races . . . . I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people” (CW, vol. III, pp. 145-146).

            “I will to the very last stand by the law of this state [Illinois], which forbids the marrying of white people with negroes” (CW, vol. III, p. 146).

            “Senator Douglas remarked . . . that . . . this government was made for the white people and not for the negroes. Why, in point of mere fact, I think so too” (CW, vol. II, p. 281)

            “I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation . . . . such separation must be effected by colonization” (CW, vol. II, p. 409)

            “Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and . . . favorable to . . . our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime” (CW, vol. II, p. 409)

            This is from Lincoln’s First Inaugural Address:

            “I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so….
            I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution . . . has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institutions of the States, including that of persons held to service [namely slaves]. To avoid misconstruction of what I have said, I depart from my purpose not to speak of particular amendments so far as to say that, holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

            Lincoln supported the Cowen Amendment to the US Constitution which would have forbade the federal government from interfering with the practice of slavery.

  • nomadd

    “twice as many Americans want to keep Confederate monuments in public spaces as want to remove them”
    why do i suspect this corresponds to the degree of racism in this country?
    nah. the percentage would be much greater.

    • LostInTheStars

      Aren’t monuments to Thomas Jefferson racist? He was a slave owner who forced Black women to have sex with him.

      Abraham Lincoln made many public statements like this:

      “I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races . . . . I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people” (Collected Works, vol. III, pp. 145-146).

      Should we take down all the statues commemorating Lincoln?

      • nomadd

        yeah they are racists but not traitors. thats the dividing line for people like you and paul craig roberts who insists that getting rid of monuments to secessionists will lead to getting rid of monuments to all white racists. not possible. because, as is being asserted by pcr and others, the founding fathers were racists. I’m of the opinion that some racists are more objectionable than others. i would draw the line at confederates. I’m against public shrines to treason.

        http://religiondispatches.org/public-shrines-to-treason-charlottesville-and-the-cult-of-confederate-memorialization/

        • LostInTheStars

          People in Virginia and other southern states didn’t identify with the Union. They identified with their state. Citizens of Virginia, Georgia, etc. were in many ways like Europeans who identify with being French or German, etc,. rather than with the European Union.
          As they saw it they were invaded so they defended themselves. My saying this in now way supports or gives justification to plantation owners who had slaves. Slavery was on the outs in all the western world and it would have eventually ended in the south. No need for almost a million dead soldiers in what to then was the bloodiest war in the history of the planet.

          • nomadd

            cry me a river

          • LostInTheStars

            I cry for the dead, the maimed, the crippled in this unnecessary war. And for their families. I cry for the women and children who suffered, died, and lost their homes under Sherman’s genocidal march to the sea. And yes I cry the for the Blacks who had to endure Jim Crow after the war.

          • nomadd

            i cried a river over you.

  • James Richard

    The purpose of instituting the arguement is to remove the center. Pick a side, either side. YOU MUST! Now you have been defined.

    • nomadd

      what center? if you think there is a center you are on the side that supports confederate monuments. you have already picked a side. you just didnt know it until now, apparently/

      • ICFubar

        This is the old ‘you’re either with us or against us’ argument, which stifles any compromise which could settle this controversy between the opposing groups. This in turn keeps the divide and conquer strategy in play big time. The suggestion that these offensive memorials be removed to Confederate grave yards seems like a compromise that might work out for everyone.

        • nomadd

          it also suggests youve been fooling yourself about how pervasive racism is and how you have participated in it while imagining that you are in that proverbial (and imaginary) center.

          • sometime

            ICFubar has addressed the problem of Confederate Monuments….offering a solution to perhaps, both sides…..he has not addressed racism per-say, as you seem to think. At least I don’t get that from reading him here. Races have been different and distinct throughout human history. No person can deny that!

          • nomadd

            he didnt have to address racism. i addressed it. i am addressing it.

          • sometime

            if he didn’t address it and you’re commenting on his mind, then you are reading his mind…you’re the person lacking in clarity, not him

          • nomadd

            yes, you know what im doing. who is reading whose mind.

            “you’re the person lacking in clarity, not him”
            that’s one blind man’s opinion.

          • sometime

            No I don’t know what you’re doing…
            what you appear to be doing is stirring up racial animosity just for the hell of it.
            Just what is it you are trying to say about racism?

          • nomadd

            you seem to know what im doing better than me.
            im stirring up nothing. im stating my opinion, same as you. what is it you dont understand about what i said?

          • KilltheBank

            He is a child with nothing better to do than play point/counter point.

            Why debate a lunatic?
            You just point and laugh and they will seek attention elsewhere.

          • ICFubar

            Human cultures are different. Biological science will tell you there is only one race of human beings exiting on this planet today, inappropriately named Homo Sapiens.

          • ICFubar

            I fully realize how prevalent racism is in America and how it has been instituted as a divide and conquer strategy by those who wish to keep the populous divided. If you think removing a few racist memorials is a cure for nazism, racist fascism, you had better think again as America’s whole governing structure is based upon a fascist ideology, or a corporate run state, and it is they who fund both sides of this issue as a divisive strategy. This has you looking at you fellow citizen instead of where you should be looking for the real culprits.

          • nomadd

            those are merely your presumptions about what you think i believe..

            all i said is there is no middle ground here which you said was an invalid argument. i stand by that statement.

            regardless of what you middle of the roadsters believe, sometimes you have to take a stand. racism is one of those issues.,

          • ICFubar

            Go ahead and take you stand but know you are playing ‘there’ game and the game will continue as long as you are not calling ‘them’ out on perpetuating racism. Unless you focus on the root cause you are just beating the bushes that lay outside castle walls and are being laughed at by those watching from the parapets…..

          • nomadd

            who says im not? again you know my mind better than me. it will continue as long as you compromise with it.

          • ICFubar

            In compromising on fecking statues we throw cold water on ‘their’ meme and get to move on to begin to address the gross inequalities that ‘they’ are using which gives rise to all kinds of divisiveness in society

            Gotta get the dog out for our walk….talk later.

          • nomadd

            “In compromising on fecking statues we throw cold water on ‘their’ meme”
            no you dont. you just sweep festering garbage under the rug.

          • ICFubar

            Racism has been instituted as a divisive issue and been keep alive all these many years. Those that run the place could have equally put an effort into ending racism. Why haven’t they? Why has it taken the efforts, and lives, of so many common folk and their leaders just to try and end this baseless prejudism? And you think you are going to fix this problem from the bottom up when it is a top down construction? I do believe I am wasting my time here in this conversation so troll on pal.

          • KilltheBank

            Sweeping blm and auntie fa under the rug?
            Whats the problem?

          • nomadd

            who said theres a problem? you?

          • KilltheBank

            I take a stand.

            I stand with WHITE Americans.

          • ZARTAN

            Excellent.

          • ICFubar

            Thank you Zartan. Coming from you this is a real compliment.

          • Zartan

            You`re welcome and Thank You.

          • ICFubar

            There is no center on such issues but there are intelligent and stupid ways of dealing with it and you have chosen the stupid way, so fuck you and all zealots like you. If you can’t understand how you are being played you deserve what you get, which is the America you live in today.

            I’d wager that you are an agent of the Open Society Foundation sent by them to troll those who would put a stop to George Soros’ machinations to usher in a one world order.

          • nomadd

            stoop low then, thats the last resort of people who cannot otherwise defend themselves. remember, you addressed me.. my guess is you wont make that mistake again.

          • KilltheBank

            Watch out!

            Theres “pervasive racism” under the bed again, chicken little!

          • nomadd

            lol

          • ICFubar

            Addressing you is like talking to a wall so you are correct in that there is no need to converse with anyone so radically calcified.

          • nomadd

            then dont talk to me.

          • nomadd

            Sorry. I may have come on too strong. I apologize. But all I was saying was what you finally stated.

            “There is no center on such issues”

            The discourse lately has seemed to disregard that altogether.

            ” but there are intelligent and stupid ways of dealing with it and you have chosen the stupid way, ”

            You are probably right about that.

          • ICFubar

            If you can’t figure out that there are intelligent ways and stupid ways of dealing with a problem I can’t help your misunderstanding. You were the one who got their knickers in a knot over the suggestion of relocating offensive statuary to a more appropriate location, as “sweeping garbage under the rug.” I believe this is more akin to to taking the rot to the compost box.

          • nomadd

            And you have to admit, the rhetoric is getting kind of strange. I am surprised at PCR, a man I usually agree with twisting statements to mean something more sinister than apparently intended, where Baraka’s call to get rid of the patriarchy, which of course is a system of governing, is interpreted as a call for genocide. Since no link was provided and I was unable to track down the citation I am unable to ascertain whether Baraka was alluding to genocide. I highly doubt it. But the discourse in the blogosphere has gotten pretty strange of late.

            ” Ajamu Baraka’s conclusion is “that in order for the world to live, the 525-year-old white supremacist Pan-European, colonial/capitalist patriarchy must die.” It is not difficult to see in this statement that genocide is the solution for the white plague upon humanity.”

            A former vice presidential candidadte is suggesting white genocide? What paranoia.

            What an odd presumption to make, along with the presumption that removal of Confederate monuments would lead to removal of non Confederate monuments.
            http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2017/08/21/trump-american-history-assassinated/

          • ICFubar

            Well we do agree on the larger format that in order for the world to live the current monetary system and the type of capitalism that has grown up around it must die. The fact that it was Europeans that developed this system is immaterial though I’ll grant that Europeans have much to atone for. They can atone by striking down this plutocratic system and building another that is based on the needs and welfare of all of humanity. When this ‘system’ is replaced with one based on universal justice all the old divisive fault lines between people will melt like snow in the springtime.

          • nomadd

            We agree on some things and not on others. For the sake of peace I’m not going to comment on thing here that I disagree with. The rest I am amenable to.

          • ICFubar

            Great discussion nomadd, and I do appreciate your stance on racism if not your solution.

            In peace….

          • nomadd

            i enjoyed the fight. something i cant always say.

          • nomadd

            Oh, but I have to add this about PCR’s apprehensions of white genocide. Who would commit this genocide? The people who are maybe 12 % of the population? Who have no money and no power? And dont have the largest most advanced military in the history of the world or a brutal police/surveillance state to back them up? Get a grip, Paul.

          • KilltheBank

            LOL@”DAS RAYCISS!!!”

            Your failures CANT be blamed on external factors.

      • James Richard

        You make my point. “I am for good, therefore anyone not on my side is evil”. Way to go, sport.

        • nomadd

          yeah. you make mine with your imagined virtuousness.

      • Gary Youree

        All monuments lose their good intentions.

        • nomadd

          as if these ever had any…

  • LostInTheStars

    Jefferson was a racist slave owner. Washington owned slaves. So did General Grant. Lincoln believed Blacks are an inferior race. The Civil War was about economics. The North fought with Irish immigrant wage slaves. Lincoln was against integration and equal rights. Confederate soldiers were not slave owners. They fought because their Homeland had been invaded. And Robert E. Lee had freed his slaves.

    Today’s America is a white supremacist nation that lords it over dark skinned nations all over the world.

    • sometime

      you are correct. I ask people to realize the truth about confederate soldiers. ” ‘They fought because their homeland had been invaded.”
      Slavery in the US could have been ended as it was in Europe before our Civil War, without the US having a civil war that killed an estimated 850000 people….The north and Fed Gov wanted the high tariff’s it was charging the southern states….the war was about money. Same as today. War is a racket….read Smedly Butler on that, the highest decorated US Marine of all time, who dedicated the remainder of his life to PEACE….

      • cityspeak

        The war was about “money”. The Southern aristocrats “money” was the cheap labor that slavery afforded them.
        So the civll war was about slavery.
        This State’s Right nonsense was revisionist history that was allowed to go forward unchecked.
        The Founding Father’s knew this was the hair in the ointment that was going to come to a calamitis conflict in the future. It could not and would not stand in a nation founded on enlightenment principles. Slavery was the scarlet letter that burned poker hot red, searing the hypocritical fundamental falsehood of the promising beacon America was attempting to shine across the world.

        • LostInTheStars

          Slave owners were a very small percentage of the southern population, but they held all the power (thanks in part to the U.S. Constitution and founding fathers like Alexander Hamilton, who tried to include as little democracy as possible.)

          The Founding Fathers did NOT know slavery would be the fly in the ointment. The Constitution actual legitimizes slavery. And it gave rights only to white male property owners. Slavery (and genocide of native Indians) is our original sin. A major reason for the American Revolution in the first place was that slavery was on the verge of being outlawed in Britain. Slavery is a national sin, not just a southern sin. And it did occur in the North.

          • KilltheBank

            Lol@original sin.

            The dirt worshippers were slaughtering, torturing, and slaving each other for centuries.

            Lol@thise poor little indians.

      • KilltheBank

        Yeah, no.

        NonWhites are given preferential treatment in all areas and their inability to excell isnt someone elses fault.

        Whites are the most accomodating to outsiders, yet the retarded canard of racist America lives in your tiny, useless mind.

        Pathetic.

  • ICFubar

    Someone suggested the Confederate military Civil War memorials be removed to Confederate grave yards so that those wishing to pay their respects can do so in a more appropriate setting. I concur. This idea defeats the divide and conquer thrust surrounding this controversy..

    What has become apparent in all the name calling back and forth on monuments is that almost every American political-military leader have their feet of clay and served the imperialist system of colonial looting of their times. This forward to today.

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  • cityspeak

    I think it is great that the Washington Blog asked their readers what do they think about the movement to remove the monuments.
    I know what I thought and felt about the monuments but it wasn’t until I heard this historian’s lectures that I felt perfectly articulated my own beliefs of what is happening and what is going on.

    I am grateful that their are scholars in our society that are willing to expand our perceptions and put things into a broader historical context.

    https://sundown.tougaloo.edu

  • ZARTAN

    And, DO you FOOLS think that YOU are FREE today? While, You FOOLS worry about Statues … The US government is using YOUR money to MURDER “people of color” all over the Planet for Profit!

    How many have they Murdered? Now, we have a Backwards People in American that worry about Statues? CAN THE DEFINITION OF IDIOT, FOOL or any other appropriate title for these people be any more clearly defined?

    While YOU FOOLS “worried about Statues,” Wall Street Stole 20-TRILLION from the US Treasury! Here is a little TIP … FOOLS, Every RACE ( EVERY GD ONE) has been –at some point in history– made Slaves and Discriminated Against.

    GET OVER IT, CHILDREN!

    • nomadd

      you get over it. and stop calling your fellow slaves ‘fools’.

      • ZARTAN

        We all Remain Slaves because “nobody else” will get over it, and “Millions of Innocent people” will die to make a filthy .01% minority DISGUSTINGLY Rich. They use History to make people hate one-another and divide their numbers, while they LOOT, Steal, KILL, DESTROY AND MAKE MORE SLAVES!

        Today, “We are all Slaves” because of this long standing propaganda practice. THEY RULE ALL OR ELSE?

        This should be what Unites “ALL” ( forget the past, because they want us all trapped in the past) and, if we fail to “unite” than we are divided by RACE, GENDER, CULTURE, NATIONALITY, SEXUAL Preference, RELIGION …, then, we are ALONE or in Numbers so Pathetic that the government laughs at the protest, beats the protesters SILLY and runs wild on all the Slaves! 20-TRILLION GIVEN TO BANKERS WHILE THE SLAVES DO NOT EVEN HAVE HEALTHCARE!!! WHY ARE THERE NO PROTESTS ON WALL STREET? fk THE STATUES!

        YOU WANT SOMETHING TO TAKE DOWN … TAKE DOWN WALL STREET!

        • nomadd

          those are your presumptions. when you ‘get over it you’ll still be a slave. only worse. he who forgets the past is condemned to relive it. you get over it. and stop calling your fellow slaves fools. i will do as i please.

          • ZARTAN

            When you get over it, then you can unify. Allowing the Governemnt to keep you seperated ( with race and division) is what they do to slaves. Why Allow it?

            You can do as you please “and be a slave” I do not care. You are all fools, because if you were all like me, the US government would be BEGGING for forgiveness! There comes a point to where YOU all become a Danger to those who have understanding. WE DO NOT WANT TO BE SLAVES WITH YOU!

            I am not here to be liked. I do not like most people. One look at this FILTHY WORLD and you can understand why!

          • nomadd

            again you presume. what you should get over is yourself.

          • nomadd

            “get over it” funny how my last response does not appear. continue to shadow box over things i never said. those are your presumptions not my views. thanks for the advice but i will do as i please. since my last comment mysteriously does not appear, im out. i dont like biased moderation. you can call people fools yet my comment is censored. the other guy can say eff you but my comment is censored, im out.

  • Gary Youree

    I dont like the idea of hiding history. Add a damn plaque if need be – from a more current historical perspective. But removing them is removing history – no matter when or why they are put up. The difference is all in the mind.
    Slavery was a major element in the civil war we are taught – and of course it should of been abolished. it was a divisionary tool left in place by the founding fathers. This country has never been anything other than a business plan of plutocracy.

    • nomadd

      history will survive. in the history books where it belongs. we dont need idols to racism to remind us of our history.

  • Whatever

    Victors write the history.
    Now imagine, had Confederate military won the civil war, whose statues we’d be removing now?
    Or ask yourself, do we know the correct history of WW2?

  • MyWikiDisQus

    Perhaps the people of our southern States and ancestors of the copperheads would gladly offer to purchase these monuments in a private sale. Those seditionists would then be charged in civil court for property damage of historical value.

  • IWASBS

    90% of Austrians voted to allow Nazi annexation. They were all wrong.

  • Jim

    We should be discussing:

    Big Insurance and Big Pharma bribing congress to keep their obscene profits as high as possible. That is why we can’t have affordable, private, insurance like Germany, France or Japan.

    We have no end solution for Afghanistan, just sending more troops to get killed and more money to defense contractors. Maybe we should just cut our losses as Nixon should have done in 1969.

    We need more good jobs in this country as soon as possible. Give a BLM or alt right marcher a job and they are too busy getting ready for work to start causing violence.

    We need public education to be linked to available jobs. Fewer film and global studies majors, more IT, engineering, accounting, medical tech and trades jobs. More cabinetmakers, fewer anthropologists.

    Tax reform that actually socks it to the top 1%. They have become extremely rich and need to pay their share. But don’t waste that resulting money, use it on infrastructure repair.

    We don’t really need to stress out about statues right now. Put it up to a vote at the next local election. Ask the people in the community if they should “keep the statues” or “remove the statues?” Let the voters decide, not some carpetbagging crazies from the left or right who come to town to start some violence.

    • ZARTAN

      Just so YOU KNOW, because I can tell you have been out of the JOB MARKET FOR A few Decades, but IT, Engineering, Accounting … “H1-B Illegals” are brought in by corporations ( H1b`s get free education in their homelands) and work for half-wage, while the American fools who paid out the WAZOO for an education get laid off. Then, try and make those SLSC loan payments, while unemployed when you are charged 98-percent interest on Said Loans! That`s America!

      America needs a Revolution for Change!

  • ZARTAN

    AND, all the While that YOU FOOLS worry about Statues there are MILLIONS of PEOPLE being MURDERED “BY YOUR MILITARY MACHINE” ALL OVER THE GLOBE!

    And, Christians … ( there are 1.5 BILLION of them) When You face that GOD of yours, I will be there, reminding HIM of your Voluntary TAX privileges and patronage to the US government. You will not be getting away with it, as Every Drop Of BLOOD, will be accounted for. Think Jesus is going to Greet you with a BIG SLOPPY KISS, Sure: With US taxpayer written in BLOOD on your forehead? JESUS would rather KISS a PIG!

    How long are you Christians going to make a FOOL of GOD?

    • ZARTAN

      And, to those who do not like my USE of the TERM: “FOOL” get over it, because I have been made a SLAVE because of YOU. Thank “GOD” that all I do is call you fools. Oh, and Christians… Read YOUR BIBLE, because GOD calls YOU, FOOLS!

      Truthfully, what else can be said in Truth? Should I call you Precious? I would rather BURN IN HELL then speak such Blaspheme!

  • Marek Edelman

    Did they even ask any black people???

    Doubtful they would agree with this bs premise.

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  • nomadd

    Wait! There is hope! This couldn’t possibly happen. But it did!
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  • Carolinatarheel

    History cannot be rewritten! We may not like what happened but it happened! Thank God we have stopped those lifestyles!

    May God continue to bless America!