2016 interview with Socrates on human ‘progress,’ winning the endgame of today’s exposure of unlawful empire (1 of ?)

Hat tip: Professor Rufus Fears.

“The strong do what power allows. The weak accept what they must.”  – Athenian envoy to the small government of Melos, with the offer to either join Athens’ empire with paying them tribute, or have all men executed, and everyone else sold into slavery. Melos politely declined Athens’ offer. Athens attacked, did what they threatened, and resettled the emptied island with 500 Athenian colonists. – Melian Dialogue of Socrates’ contemporary historian, Thucydides.

Carl: Socrates! Thanks for agreeing to a conversation!

Socrates: Carl! My pleasure; conversations are what I do!

C: Anything you’d like to say to our readers to begin?

S: Yes, thank you, on two topics. First: humans have made little progress in living virtuous lives since my lifetime 2400 years ago. Second: perhaps this lack of progress will make our conversation more helpful to the public.

I’d like to go into detail. Feel free to interject with comments or questions.

First, let’s consider the extent of human progress for truth and virtue in the last 2400 years. My life as the historical Socrates was a citizen-soldier under an Athenian Empire. Athens demanded tribute-taxes and slaves from dominated city states, which supported the beautiful public buildings I witnessed construction of on the Acropolis. Athenian empire through tribute and servility was our hubris, and despite civic attempts to educate the public through tragic plays to teach the fatal consequences of hubris, we fell into civil war with Sparta and her allies.

This history sets the stage of my historical dialogues with the people of Athens: to inquire into our best human responses for truth and virtue. The result of my vocation was public trial on charges that inquiry for truth “corrupted the young” and was somehow in denial to the Gods. Although my prosecutors offered no evidence other than baseless words, and I did my usual best to reveal these citizens didn’t know what they were talking about, I was found guilty in the first part of the trial.

There was a second part of the trial, Carl, to determine punishment for my guilt. By law, I was given first response. Do you know what I proposed?

C: I do, but you’re on a roll.

S: Thank you. I proposed that I should receive free meals for the rest of my life; the same reward given our Olympic Games’ winners! Ha! Before I was shouted-down, I told the jury truth and virtue seems at least as valuable as winning a sporting event. That really pissed them off, as you say today.

C: But Plato and other students talked you into offering a fine, right?

S: Yes, yes. I offered the standard amount for severe guilt of 20% of my wealth: 100 drachmae. Because I taught without charging anyone, Plato and others guaranteed a payment of 3,000. I wanted to refuse, but Crito made an excellent point: expose my prosecutors as wanting the literal death of truth and virtue rather than even excessive remission from a poor man’s family.

I think the point here, Carl, is that the public of my day were unable to recognize or appreciate commitment to truth and virtue. They’d rather destroy it to obey authority. It didn’t matter that authority had the weakest lies when they evoked public fear. (chuckles) But, Carl, this is surely a condition humans have evolved beyond in 2016, yes?

C: (one small chuckle) No. This makes your point that humans still largely obey authority no matter how outrageous the lies. It’s like the more recent allegory, The Emperor’s New Clothes. Are you familiar with the story?

S: Yes.

C: So it’s like that, with modern empires led by my country demanding tribute, using the public as work animals and debt slaves, and orchestrating official lies through media and public schools.

S: But you are hopeful for a victory of lasting virtue, Carl? That’s the topic you wanted to discuss.

C: Yeah; here’s what I see: the difference between your time and ours is that everybody has the capacity to read today compared to perhaps 10% in your day. We teach humanist ideals you helped begin, with the US embodying many in our Constitution under strict limits to prevent abuse of power. Polling data are overwhelming that Americans sense something criminally wrong today in “leadership” and corporate media lies. These data show people will educate themselves with Internet alternative media. So, short-term victory seems inevitable from this awakening, but how peaceful transition will be is uncertain, and how long it would last.

S: Yes. The contest is for Truth.

C: It is, and whether the public’s recognition and passion for the truth you stood for has evolved enough to last. Any advice for this?

S: (chuckles) You’re asking the person who knows that he doesn’t know anything, right? That’s my claim to wisdom! (laughs)

Ok, ok (stops laughing), let’s look together, Carl. You’ve satisfied yourself on your path that absolute justice and virtue exist, and that’s why you’re able to envision them?

C: Yes, absolutely.

S: And that the whole of philosophy means its literal components: the love of wisdom, and that wisdom means to live your highest virtues, not to merely know them?

C: Certainly.

S: And that you live on a world upside-down, that those of us living for truth and virtue… well, we were called Sophists in my day: those who could make a good argument sound bad, and a bad argument sound good. That is, those seeking truth are called liars, and the liars in authority are presented as truth-tellers. Is this your experience?

C: Yes, Socrates.

S: Then that is as far as I can take you.

C: Wait, what?

S: Yes, that’s it. I don’t know any more about being human than the search for truth and virtue isn’t taken very seriously by the public, and opposed by those hiding empire with lying sophist rhetoric. I believe the modern term is Orwellian.

C: So what can people best do about this condition?

S: Whatever they want. I found for myself that following my own “small voice within” was helpful to prevent me from doing something morally wrong. But in this world, the only outward help it brought were a few friends, meager possessions, and not even enough public support to prevent my execution by jury vote! (laughs) I mean, literal hundreds of my fellow citizens would rather kill me than see me challenging ignorance and hypocrisy! (more laughter)

Do you really expect more for anyone challenging authority today?!

Wait, before you answer: I have a relatively new friend I enjoy talking with who you knew as Dr. Martin King. How did his experiments with truth work for him?

C: Martin was assassinated by his own government when he opposed their wars for empire.

S: So what advice would you offer those asking?

C: We can honor ideals of truth and virtue, express them as best we can, offer this path to others with no expectation, and leave the rest to our Faith in virtue in what we agree is sooooo much that humans cannot know. Surely, Socrates, you see value on this path from unexpected and unforeseen benefits of your life: Plato becoming a primary teacher to literal billions of humans?

S: Indeed, some benefits came of this.

C: And of just the second example you mention: you agree that Martin’s life inspired anyone looking for leadership in truth and virtue in recent history?

S: Of course.

C: And Socrates, what of Martin and your deaths? Did they not expose the empires’ goals to destroy truth more than any of your words or actions ever could?

S: To those who can see, yes.

C: Then there we have it. (smiles)

S: Yes. There we have it. (smiles) May I leave your readers with a story?

C: Please.

S: You’ll discover your future with your fellow humans’ collective steps, of course.

C: Of course.

S: Please know you’ll discover so much more than you are capable of imagining. Humans are as creatures on the ocean floor, seeing themselves on top of a world below them. They gaze up into cloudy waters, seeing little above, and with no idea of amazing worlds beyond their view.

C: (smiling, but said with a little bite) You liar, Socrates; you do know more!

S: Do I? (chuckles, and with empathy). I do. But you’re the ones who agreed to live as humans, with intentional limits for what you can see and know. You chose this adventure with only human tools in your power.

Keep moving forward. You already know that virtue is its own reward.

Gotta’ go. I’m looking forward to wine, a meal, Roman hot bath, and conversation with my interesting friend, Seneca. Yeah, things didn’t end well with his work for virtue and dance with the Dark Side! But there is Divine Justice, Carl and readers, and what happened in history were under conditions always changing with all our experiences and input. What you think, say, and do always influence the future!

You have more friends than you know, and every step forward invites so many more of your brothers and sisters to join you. Trust in divine justice; it is the law!

That’s all I can tell you. Time for me to drink, eat, and relax!

Peace out, as you say.

3-minute Wisecrack video: Who was Socrates?


“Interview” series:


Note: I make all factual assertions as a National Board Certified Teacher of US Government, Economics, and History, with all economics factual claims receiving zero refutation since I began writing in 2008among Advanced Placement Macroeconomics teachers on our discussion board, public audiences of these articles, and international conferences. I invite readers to empower their civic voices with the strongest comprehensive facts most important to building a brighter future. I challenge professionals, academics, and citizens to add their voices for the benefit of all Earth’s inhabitants.


Carl Herman is a National Board Certified Teacher of US Government, Economics, and History; also credentialed in Mathematics. He worked with both US political parties over 18 years and two UN Summits with the citizen’s lobby, RESULTS, for US domestic and foreign policy to end poverty. He can be reached at Carl_Herman@post.harvard.edu

Note: Examiner.com has blocked public access to my articles on their site (and from other whistleblowers), so some links in my previous work are blocked. If you’d like to search for those articles other sites may have republished, use words from the article title within the blocked link. Or, go to http://archive.org/web/, paste the expired link into the box, click “Browse history,” then click onto the screenshots of that page for each time it was screen-shot and uploaded to webarchive. I’ll update as “hobby time” allows; including my earliest work from 2009 to 2011 (blocked author pages: here, here).


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  • diogenes

    Thank you, Carl. With me our friend Socrates is preaching to the choir but I do think with this interview you have out-done yourself. I’m afraid he is right that the Athenian Empire disgraced Athens’ best self and values. As his friend Thucydides points out, empire abroad led to tyranny at home. I’m afraid that his student Plato turned out a fascist, though. We need to get together with the two of them and talk it out over olives and goat cheese. And I think you made a transcription error with “Seneca,” who was Nero’s Kissinger. In any case I imagine Socrates spends far more time in Martin’s company. As the oracle of Pythian Apollo says, gnothi seauton, but as she also says, meden agan.

    • Carl_Herman

      Hi diogenes! Thanks for the point about Seneca; I amended the passage to more accurately reflect the twisted reality Seneca lived. It’s hard to imagine going much lower than Nero, but hey, the people of the US might drive us yet to #1 in that category. Seneca certainly had a lot of fascinating material and experiences to reflect on with his writing!

      • diogenes

        Tacitus’ Annals have the lowdown on Seneca. I don’t call him Nero’s Kissinger idly, although, realistically speaking, compared to Kissinger and his clients, Seneca and Nero were cheap punks.

  • wunsacon

    Nice, Carl. Thanks.

  • elizabethhanson

    Excellent work Carl… I spent the day in Olympia talking to a group of active citizens and several representatives about the system of oppression being set up NOW in real time with common core and its tests. The Ds are passing bills to solidify that. So, I go talk to the R’s to block it. But the Rs want charter schools privately run… So in the end we get this- https://weaponsofmassdeception.org/ What a mess!

    • Carl_Herman

      Hi Elizabeth! Yeah, our .01% have to control education, especially to win the right to “fire at will” any teacher who challenges the “official lies.”

      Thank you for your work and love for all our children 🙂

  • February 9th, 2016 Countries Are Dumping US Assets And Iran Will Not Use The Dollar For Oil Trade

    JPM Quant is now saying the market is going to fall further and the Tech bubble has just popped. Russia will become the biggest exporter of wheat. Venezuela now selling the rest of its gold. Germany and France want an Eur zone finance ministry to take more control of the countries.


    • diogenes

      Hey Prof, I think you’re in the wrong classroom. This is the discussion of Socratic politics. Your hobby horse is down the hall.

  • wwobb.com

    Great stuff Carl…Thanks…