Finkelstein, Gandhi: Violence against Disproportionate Aggression is Not Violence

In his latest lecture, Dr. Norman Finkelstein, (PhD political science., Princeton; son of Nazi death camp survivors and descendant of Nazi death camp victims) explains that, under international law, people have a right to use armed force to achieve self-determination.

However, when one combines all of what US-based human rights organizations, such as Amnesty International, say about Gazan resistance to Israeli occupation and aggression, it is discovered that, according to these groups, Gaza:

1) Cannot use any of the weapons available to it that can reach Israel, because the weapons are so primitive that they cannot target civilian or military objects, as they have no guidance systems, and are thus inherently indiscriminate.

2) Cannot stage armed defense from populated areas, though 95% of Gaza is densely populated, and is one of the most densely populated areas in the world.

Thus, Finkelestein explains, those who wish to resist Israeli terror are relegated to standing in an empty field and being executed.  Amnesty literally says, Finkelstein continues, that there is an empty patch of land in Gaza where the fighters must stand.

So, the options human rights organizations give Gazans are:

1) Die slowly from poisoning, as Israel’s illegal, seven-year, ongoing siege has rendered 95% of Gaza’s water unfit for human consumption.  (60% of Gazans are children, and 80% are refugees from Israel’s 1948 ethnic cleansing of Palestine.)

2) To stand in an empty patch of land, with no weapons, and be executed from the sky by Israeli bombers.

I.e, Gazans, according to the US-based human rights groups, have only the right to be executed by Israel, and have a choice between a slow or quick execution.

Mahatma Gandhi Mustache

However, Finkelstein, who has written a book called What Gandhi Says, points out that Gandhi said that if someone is being raped and the victim fights back against the attacker, it is technically violence, but Gandhi does not consider it violence.

Gandhi gave the further example of the Nazi invasion of Poland: the Poles used their comparatively meager resources – a few tanks and artillery – to resist the overwhelming Nazi army, and Gandhi says that while this resistance was violence, he does not consider it violence.

Speaking in 1938 specifically of Palestine, Gandhi said:

And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have no doubt that they are going about it in the wrong way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun.

They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs … [and] nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.

Gandhi’s words resonate not only for Palestine (where the ratio of Palestinian to Israeli children killed in the latest massacre was 537 to 1), but for places like Baltimore and Ferguson, and countries like the US, where certain groups have been struggling for generations against brutal, disproportionate force.

Also see: The Hateful Likud [Israeli ruling organization] Charter Calls for the Destruction of Any Palestine State

Reporter and his UK-based colleague @_DirtyTruths.

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  • Southernfink

    Isn’t it the duty of the oppressed to resist their oppressors ? – Warsaw Ghetto survivors would certainly agree.

    • fritz

      As Links in the “infinite CHAIN of MANKIND” ; We are obliged , to root out Those; “misusing their POWER to Annihilate HUMANITY” !!!

      • Libertybelle

        Gee, people who talk like you have wound up being those kind of folks who look to be annihilating humanity. Hitler felt the Jews were destroying Germans, so…….

        And if humanity is infinite, then it cannot be annihilated.

        • fritz

          Instead of Anonymously Shining Your “Meshugene” Intelligence ; You should first read the Article ; or , even better <<< SHUT YOUR TRAP ! <<<

          • Libertybelle

            I read the article. I even visited Finkelstein’s Website. And your nasty comment illustrates my point that you said things madmen think.

          • fritz

            I see your fantasy – name , I read your ASSERTIONS , I am fed up with your “MAD Exceptional POLICY – Domestically & Foreign” ! And you mad BASTARD dare to name Others – madman ? Take your Pills !!!

          • Libertybelle

            Don’t miss your therapy appt.

        • dreamjoehill

          And you feel liberals and blacks are destroying White America; so you’re the NAZI here, pig.

          • Libertybelle

            Liberals are destroying America and most of them are white. After the genocide-through-immigration that liiberals themselves promote, most liberals will the be nonwhite. Then destroying America will be in the hands of nonwhites.

          • dreamjoehill

            Liberals are destroying America and most of them are white
            ROFL. Stupid illiberal bigot

          • Libertybelle

            Stop being so hateful.

          • dreamjoehill

            You deliberately misinterpret righteous indignation as hate.
            You should change your screen name to Sympathy for the Racist.
            Or Lying Hateful Bigot, if you don’t like the Stones

          • Libertybelle

            Please stop being hateful.

          • dreamjoehill

            you deserve it

          • Atomsk

            Yeah, being hateful should be your privilege.

          • Libertybelle

            Uh, no, dingbat, you said it yourself four hours ago and I quote:

            dreamjoehill 4 hours ago
            “I hate you because you are a bigot.”

          • dreamjoehill

            Same difference.
            Your brand of bigotry is a poison. I hate it, and I hate you as an online expression of racist bigotry.

          • Libertybelle

            Please, don’t be a brown supremacist, NOT NICE.

    • Bev

      Gene Sharp, Norman Finkelstein and Gandhi are heroic in their efforts and sharing their insights to help oppressed people. I’ve just started listening to the audio of Gene Sharp’s book. Many good points:

      Gene Sharp’s free on-line book, “From Dictatorship to Democracy, A Conceptual Framework for Liberation“, see back index for app. 200 nonviolent actions to construct positive change.:
      http://www.aeinstein.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/FDTD.pdf

      Audio version of Gene Sharp’s book, “From Dictatorship to Democracy, A Conceptual Framework for Liberation” :
      https://librivox.org/from-dictatorship-to-democracy-version-2-by-gene-sharp/

      http://www.aeinstein.org/
      http://www.aeinstein.org/english/ Online Library
      http://www.aeinstein.org/free-publications/ in choice of many languages

      http://www.aeinstein.org/boston-celebrates-gene-sharp-day/
      Boston Celebrates Gene Sharp Day
      To honor a lifetime of study on strategic nonviolent action, the city of Boston has proclaimed that April 27 will henceforth be known as Gene Sharp Day!

      http://www.aeinstein.org/einstein-institution-2014-newsletter-and-appeal/
      Einstein Institution 2014 Newsletter and Appeal
      December 2014
      Dear friend,

      In a world that often seems filled with violence and oppression, it is easy to understand why many people have lost grounds for hope in a different future. At the Albert Einstein Institution we see powerful daily examples of why the conditions of war, oppression, and the rule of violence are not inevitable. Around the world, people are refusing to accept that bleak future by using careful thinking, wise planning, and courageous action to conduct powerful struggles for freedom.

      For more than thirty years, the Albert Einstein Institution has been promoting knowledge and understanding of nonviolent struggle as a powerful alternative to violent conflict through research, publications, translations, workshops, and consultations. With your past support for our work, you have helped people facing difficult situations access the knowledge that has brought greater effectiveness to their struggles against dictatorships and other oppressive systems. As described in the 2014 edition of the Nonviolent Struggle newsletter, Hong Kong’s recent struggle for universal suffrage has revealed yet again the importance of advance preparation and access to knowledge in planning a struggle and how this planning can help to prepare people to act effectively in times of crisis.

      In spite of its massive potential however, promoting the use of nonviolent struggle without providing the skills and knowledge required for success is dangerous for those who might use it against powerful opponents. We must remember that as people conducting nonviolent struggles innovate and learn, so also do their opponents. That is why it is critical that we continue to help develop and share tools for nonviolent struggle for social and political change to the people who need them.

      To do this, we need your help. Please join us in meeting this challenge and helping us to advance our unique mission.

      Your contribution, whether it is $10, $25, $100, or $1000, is critical to the continued operation and expansion of the Albert Einstein Institution. Please give as generously as you can to help us promote greater freedom through nonviolent means. Your contribution can be made
      through the Network For Good.

      Thank you,
      Jamila Raqib
      Executive Director

      …….

      We need a democracy in order to get economic fairness returned by way of a Debt-free, Interest-free Public/Government money ( http://www.monetary.org/ http://www.monetary.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/HR-2990.pdf ) for jobs to attempt new engineering to reduce the terrible dangers of Fukushima, WIPP, the 400 aging nuclear power plants, and to try to re-stabilize a destabilizing climate. More cooperation, less war is required to do these things that will help our survival as a species.

      http://www.palastinvestigativefund.org/?id=69

      Billionaires & Ballot Bandits – The Movie – DVD
      All items are signed. Donations are tax-deductible
      I want to contribute to produce Billionaires & Ballot Bandits.
      Help us investigate their vote-swiping schemes and the Sugar-Daddies who fund them BEFORE the 2016 Election.

      We are embarking on a two-year project, digging deep into the billionaires behind the vote-swiping scourge.

      We will continue the investigation of the 9 methods of swindling Americans out of a fair ballot count — from faux-felon purges to alien-voter hunts to trashing absentee ballots — we also will follow the money: tracking down the billionaires, from the four Koch Bros (yes, there are FOUR), to the finance vultures, market manipulators and other billionaire boils on the body politic.

      We are looking for a few intrepid helpers to provide us the tools to shovel into the filth of the filthy rich. We already have files, whistleblowers, secret tape recordings and footage filmed — but we’ve got a long way to go and a lot of goo to go through.

      We’re beginning with all that good stuff we uncovered and reported in my New York Times bestseller Billionaires & Ballot Bandits: Greg Palast Investigates Karl Rove, the Koch Gang and their Buck-Buddies.

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      ……….

      http://bradblog.com/?p=7417

      Democracy’s Gold Standard
      Hand-Marked, Hand-Counted Paper Ballots, Publicly Tabulated at Every Polling Place in America…
      By Brad Friedman

      …the country’s highest court found that secret, computerized vote counting was unconstitutional. Unfortunately, the country was Germany, and the Constitution violated by e-voting systems was the one that the U.S. wrote and insisted Germans ratify as part of their terms of surrender following WWII.

      Paul Lehto, a U.S. election attorney and Constitutional rights expert, summarized the German court’s unambiguous, landmark finding:

      “No ‘specialized technical knowledge’ can be required of citizens to vote or to monitor vote counts.”

      There is a “constitutional requirement of a publicly observed count.”

      “[T]he government substitution of its own check or what we’d probably call an ‘audit’ is no substitute at all for public observation.”

      “A paper trail simply does not suffice to meet the above standards.

      “As a result of these principles,…’all independent observers’ conclude that ‘electronic voting machines are totally banned in Germany’ because no conceivable computerized voting system can cast and count votes that meet the twin requirements of…being both ‘observable’ and also not requiring specialized technical knowledge.

      After the verdict in the case — filed by a computer expert and his political scientist son — Lehto wondered how it could be that open, observable democracy is seemingly an inviolable right for “conquered Nazis,” but not, apparently, for citizens of the United States…

      ………..

      http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1452806128?ie=UTF8&tag=tbb-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=1452806128

      Hands-On Elections:
      An Informational Handbook for Running Real Elections, Using Real Paper
      Ballots, Counted by Real People – 2nd Edition
      by Nancy Tobi

      • Libertybelle

        Democracy is evil. Yuck.

        • Southernfink

          With a third party the numbers will be different, the balance of power will have shifted.

          • Libertybelle

            That is absurd. The “majority” still wins, only more easily. And even less of the people are represented because the percent that chooses the winner is less than ever.

          • Southernfink

            The majority always wins – with a third party — theoretically — there’s the opportunity to oppose the dominant party.

            The designers of FTA’s have foreseen this and therefore there are ISDS provisions in many FTA’s.

            Due to the power of ISDS in FTA’s even a people friendly party can be challenged in a private tribunal.

            The more important thing is that the US is not really a democracy but an oligarchy under control of the international banker class who are using ISDS provisions to ”manipulate — rearrange government policies in favor of the investment class.

            Initially – and for the benefit of the planet and to reverse globalization which is leading to climate change — all ISDS provisions need to be cancelled.

          • Libertybelle

            The US was never a “Democracy”. It was never supposed to be; it is a representative republic.

            And “climate change” is a positive natural feature of life in the solar system. For the most part science denier scientists deceive the public to enslave them.

          • Southernfink

            THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NATURAL ABOUT MAN MADE HYDROCARCON INDUCED CLIMATE CHANGE !!!

            There is absolutely nothing representative about an oligarchy.

            The US isn’t a democracy — Everybody knows — While the US is pretending to be a ”democracy” bringing ”democracy” to the rest of the world — US democracy is an oxymoron…Ironically the US does not consider another nation to be a ”democracy” unless they first privatize their national assets and which will be snapped up with fiat money created out of the this air by the big international banks that ultimately control her policies.

            You are also wrong about Climate change which is caused by massive CO2 emissions which is a direct result of globalization and the petrol dollar economy that’s supporting it.
            Playing the Nazi card only proved nothing but your desperation.

            What’s needed is new global economic system based on Eco-Socialism and renewable energies, look it up, it’s all good.

          • Libertybelle

            There is absolutely nothing on the planet that is unnatural. The development of science, industry, and technology are all natural developments of the human mind.

            Not one so-called synthetic substance created is unnatural to this planet or the universe or,else it would not be here. It would not exist except that it is natural for it to exist through the natural creative out workings of the natural human mind.

            The technology humans create is as natural as the Tsunami in Japan, the earthquake in Nepal. To deny this is to deny science and to reject the natural intelligence of the human species.

            The question, then-for rational people- is not the issue of what is natural or not, but what is too much or too little. Too much water (Tsunamis) over civilian areas is bad. Enough to water your strawberries is not. Too little water in California is bad, enough to bathe is good.

            At this point there are too many lies and deceptions promulgated by devious and immoral “scientists” who hate the human race. They have discredited themselves. And until honest research becomes available the liars on the left deserve the resistance and ridicule they now face.
            Your hysteria about this is amusing. As I suspect you support abortion (mass murder), Marxism (mass murder), and romanticize non western peoples who now appear to be “guilty” of overpopulating the planet and stressing the territories they inhabit by mindless copulating and producing offspring they cannot house and feed.

            Democracy-shemocracy:

            “Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths…” James Madison

            And what moron told you I supported the Oligarchy, the phony wars, or globalization? I’d like to give them a price of my mind.

          • Southern

            What complete and utter rubbish.

          • Libertybelle

            Wow, that was profound. LOL

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            I’m pretty sure burning fossil fuels is altering the atmosphere, but other than that, I vote you up. “The development of science, industry, and technology are all natural developments of the human mind,” you say. I agree completely.

            Once people accept that–and few will, because the fact of the matter is that they cannot accept that humans are not somehow above or apart from nature–the difference of opinion rests on whether they like humans and their ways. Kurt Vonnegut once said something to the effect that saying that humans are not intelligent enough is like saying elephants aren’t large enough. We are far too intelligent but hardly wise–that’s my take. The squirrels outside my window have the sense to play most of the day; we can only think of how to enslave, punish, and kill each other and the rest of the natural world.

          • Libertybelle

            I would not go as far as “we can only think of how too…”. Many people do not think that way at all. Perhaps you are one of them.

            Also, many don’t start out to kill, but it happens because of the law of unforeseen consequences.

            It is also clear, from the evidence written in the history of the human race, that as a whole, killing, enslaving, and punishing (unjustly) are very much natural to the human condition as well. Of it were not true it would not be so.

            Karl Marx wanted to overcome true evil. But what he helped create was massive evil. I trust it was not his intention. This happens because without God’s wisdom, mankind cannot find the right path to take.

          • Atomsk

            You are an idiot and talk about stuff you have no clue about. You also indirectly slander this part of the world (Eastern Europe) without having *any idea at all* about what actually happened – and is happening – here. Just fyi, your country is actually supporting a neonazi putschist regime in a country right next to mine – with pretty high Republican support btw – and you know nothing at all about it. Nothing whatsoever. Never mind that it’s bringing us closer to nuclear war.

          • dreamjoehill

            The stress on the planet’s ecosystem results almost entirely from over-consumption by developed nations, not by impoverished in the 3rd world.
            You are a racist through and through, and you are obviously beyond the reach of reason. A true fascist pig.
            I hope the Good Lord takes you soon and rids he planet of one more shit spewing racist pig,

          • Libertybelle

            Please get off the computer and stop sucking up resources. Go live like a primitive of you a really care about overconsumption. I suspect you do not.

            And your brown supremacism is getting tiresome.

          • dreamjoehill

            Brown Supremacism? ROFL.
            Your computer jibe is both non sequitar & ad hominem. It has no bearing on the argument.
            Thank you for providing ongoing evidence that racists are dumb as shit.

          • Libertybelle

            Don’t be a brown supremacist. And please stop the hate.

          • dreamjoehill

            I hate you because you are a bigot.

          • Libertybelle

            The bigot is the person who hates.

          • Christopher Oldfield

            Plants eat CO2. Scientists are literally complaining about people polluting with plant food. There have been many ages where co2 levels were much higher than they were now.. and the earth was considered a paradise. 10,000 years ago, the ice age ended, and it has grown steadily warmer since, and there have been many periods that were warmer than it is now. The earth has always been in a period of climate change, and blaming humans for it is incredibly silly.

          • dreamjoehill

            “So I will still throw my hat in with Jefferson, Madison, Jay, Hamilton, and the US Constitution.”
            You throw your hat in with perpetrators of genocide and slavery.
            Your views mirror those of the NAZIs; so it’s rather hypocritical of you to pretend you don’t feel an affinity for Hitler’s racism and fascism.

          • Libertybelle

            I guess a nitwit might think I share a philosophy with Hitler. And that is to be expected.

            Hitler despised western civilization, apparently like you do. And Hitler admired Abe Lincoln, as you do too.

            You are vicious, just like Hitler, so please stop the hate. You feed into the Hitler mindset with it.

          • Atomsk

            Jefferson was a slaveholder, you goddamn ignorant moron, which is what dreamjoehill meant. Your way of “debate” is disgusting beyond belief.

          • Libertybelle

            Jefferson was a slave holder? I am shocked!

          • Atomsk

            You’re not shocked, you’re just a confused, ignorant moron.

          • Libertybelle

            Jefferson was a slave holder? I am shocked!

          • dreamjoehill

            The US was never a “Democracy”.
            Too true, even he democratic minimum of universal suffrage is routinely violated. That’s one area that actually separates the Dems and the GOP: support for universal suffrage and expanding voting rights in general.
            Goddamn, took a liitle oinker like you to make that distinction apparent.

        • dreamjoehill

          “Democracy is evil”
          You are an evil idiot. Your lack of respect for democracy clearly demonstrates your proto-fascist nature.

          • Libertybelle

            You are a nitwit: through a democracy the people can choose fascism.

  • hidflect

    I love Finkelstein’s delivery. It’s like a slow, implacable steamroller of logic.

    • Libertybelle

      Logic stripped of wisdom is a great evil. For example. Unauthorized spending via taxation by government is theft. Democrats support unauthorized spending. Therefore all Democrats are thieves. So lock them all up.

      All of that is logical. All is true up to the point of locking them up because it is crazy to think it could happen or should. Some things defy logic and the human heart has to take over too balance out the tragedy of civilization wide corruption and criminality.

      • Harlan County

        Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the United States Constitution, grants the federal government of the United States its power of taxation. While authorizing Congress to levy taxes, this clause permits the levying of taxes for two purposes only: to pay the debts of the United States, and to provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States. Taken together, these purposes have traditionally been held to imply and to constitute the federal government’s taxing and spending power.

        • Libertybelle

          Obamacare is not an enumerated power. Taxes may not be lawfully collected for it. The Dept of Education is not an enumerated power (unless it is a class to teach ignorant congressmen and senators about the Constitution). The Dept of Labor is not an enumerated power unless it is just for organizing federal employees. Medicare is not granted. Medicaid is not granted. Headstart is not granted. EPA (except for the District and certain other areas )is not granted. The FDA, DEA, BATF, DHS, USDA, CDC are not granted in the enumerated powers.

          Taking property (taxes/money) for any purposes other than those enumerated/granted is lawlessness. Theft. Criminality.

          I realize that the criminals in DC (everyone of late but the Honorable Ron Paul) believes it is lawful.

          • Harlan County

            Do you absolve congress of malfeasances? How about illegal wars, what’s your stance on them?

          • Libertybelle

            I didn’t absolve them at all. You can see that demonstrated by all the congressionally approved and unconstitutional programs listed in my post. They came from congress.

            Illegal wars? Horrifying. Sickening. And for most of the past one hundred years the US has waged them.

          • Harlan County

            Let us agree that Democrats and Republicans are complicit with regards to criminality. In your other posts you singled out Democrats only.

          • Libertybelle

            I single Dems out when they are the culprits. And I condemn the GOP when they are the perps. Dems are just more guilty.

          • Harlan County

            I agree that they promote themselves as a lesser evil and as so they are a more effective evil.

          • Libertybelle

            LOL

          • Harlan County

            Property tax, I’m not a tax expert but that’s a state tax correct? Each state has it’s own constitution, basically the states can do whatever the hell they want, within reason and if people don’t like a particular state than they will vote with they’re feet, yes.

          • Libertybelle

            Property taxes are, as far as I know, local (as opposed to state). Much of it goes to fund fascist government schools where children are forced to attend at gunpoint. Thereafter they are brainwashed to hate themselves (if they are white), hate their heritage(if they are white), and hate their form of government.

            And yes, the idea of federalism (which the fascist schools refuse to teach) is that there should be as many experiments in self government as there are states. This is seen in people a fleeing the criminal states of California and New York because of their confiscatory tax policies.

          • Harlan County

            Wow, you really said a mouthful, hey where I live I picked my daughter up from high school, one of her classmates was leaving in a Ford pickup with a lift kit and a rebel flag out the pickup bed and nobody said boo to him. Now that doesn’t sound very fascist now does it.

          • Libertybelle

            Let him tell the district he isn’t going to send them there anymore. And he doesn’t have money for a private school.

            When I first learned about homeschooling, it was illegal in North Dakota. It is illegal in Germany. The fascists (mostly Democratics/teachers unions/local governments continually try to outlaw it in the US.

            Like I said schooling in America it is at gunpoint. Confederates obey the law. And this is why the mass murderer, Abe Lincoln slaughtered them. He trampled the law.

          • dreamjoehill

            “Confederates obey the law. And this is why the mass murderer, Abe Lincoln, slaughtered them. He trampled the law and liberty. And ever since Lincoln the centralization of absolute power by the feds has hung around our necks.”

            You really are a deeply reactionary racist. Your defense of the slaveholders and Dixie is abhorrent and marks you as a completely vile individual. Like the Dixie racists, you care only for your own freedom and nothing for the freedom of non-whites.

            You are a disgusting piece of rat shit. Lower than lice.

          • Libertybelle

            Are you mentally ill?

            You applaud the white supremacist Abe Lincoln and then call me the racist. LOL, You are deeply confused.

            Only deluded or brainwashed nitwits think Lincoln had a civil war to free the slaves.

          • dreamjoehill

            Where did I “applaud Lincoln”, in particular where did I applaud his ideas about race?
            You are a lying racist
            I attacked your defense of the Confederacy. In the context of your other remarks, it is clearly racist, and you are a dirty pig.

          • Libertybelle

            LOL. you are such a joke and a dingbat.

          • Atomsk

            Are you mentally ill?

            No, you are.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            Why oh why does this chick keep at it? How old is this thread? Almost three weeks! Can’t she find a site a tad more sympatico?

            People are so weird. How’ve you been?

          • Atomsk

            Well…why do I keep at it? 🙂 I’m fine, thanks, just had a few days of doing nothing.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            Why does anyone keep at it? I dunno, but you’re pretty good at it. Old Chastitybelle over here is rather humorous, isn’t she?

            Oh, Atomsk, I’ve got this email writing coach who told me to quit fucking around on the Internet and go mad. He thinks I hold back too much. :>! So I wrote him the most vicious story about incestuous love, birds, squirrels, heart specialists, idiot philosophy professors, fine dining, and madness. It is so violent, and full of classical violin music. Fun! Any ideas of what I might write him next?

  • Libertybelle

    Wow. It is crazy talk to say oppressors have caused the problem in Baltimore. Liberalism caused it. Have all the sex you want, no big deal. Kill the babies in your womb. No big deal. Make the poor dependent on the state for handouts. No big deal. Force kids into prison style government schools at gunpoint, make it boring, don’t teach them facts, or grammar, or math. No big deal. Teach them to hate white people and America. No big deal.

    And then wonder what went wrong. It is a big deal. Before the Great Society and before the Civil Rights Movement black families were intact. After the Democratic Party destroyed the black family (and the family altogether) we have Baltimore, Ferguson, Detroit and every other tragedy in America.

    How do you fix the evil Democratics wrought? Let THEM pay for it. Out of their own pockets. They broke it.

    Who are they? The people who have promoted the cultural chaos that leads to the doorstep of Balitmore riots. Liberals like : John Kerry, George Soros, Letterman, Streisand, Ophrah, Buffet, Pelosi, the Clinton’s, Hollywood, Bill Gates, Tom Steyer, Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Obama’s Wall Street supporters, and all the other corrupt liberals (mostly godless savages themselves) who support a political party that stripped the poor of their humanity, stripped the cultural of traditional family values, and then act like they had nothing to do with it.

    • Elizabeth Hayes

      Excellent assessment of the “liberals.” But you don’t think the repubs are an improvement, do you? You seem far too intelligent to buy into their hypocrisy.

      When I was in my 20s my mother turned into a Reagan fundamentalist pig. It was really scary to watch this woman as she fawned over O’Reilley, played military marches during holiday gatherings, and scanned the Bible for reasons to hate. That’s what liberals fear: not the sham “caring” of the liberals, the hypocrisy of which they will turn a blind eye to every time. They fear the full-throttle fascists like my dearly departed mommie.

      Our “liberals” and “conservatives,” or however you want to term them, are just two sides of the same coin, to use a tired phrase. They differ in rhetoric, ways, and means, but their intent is pretty much the same: fuck over your fellow man, fuck over the vulnerable.

      • Libertybelle

        I am an unafilliated voter. I left the GOP in 2006 after it became clear Bush lied.

        I have to disagree about libs and cons. So do most people who follow politics. The confusion comes from neocons, they are leftist GOPERS (war mongers, international interventionists, police state). Progs and libs are the same (socialists, international interventionists, police state). The socialism distinguishes them from lefty GOPERS.

        True conservatives (very rare) are Patrick Buchanan types. They were purged from the GOP by Bill Buckley when the neocons took prominence.

        • Elizabeth Hayes

          It took you till 2006 to figure out that Bush lied? Dear, you are indoctrinated up the wazoo, and lack the gray matter I thought you might. I was hoping you were more a John Taylor Gatto libertarian. In the wrangle between Buckley and Gore Vidal, Buckley proved he is an elitist ass, as he had in countless other ways.

          • Libertybelle

            Oh gee, attack me for finding out the truth. That is something a moron would easily do.

          • Atomsk

            You weren’t attacked for “finding out the truth”, but for clinging to a lie for years.

          • Libertybelle

            You don’t sound interested in the truth. So you shouldn’t act like you are.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            I’ll cut you an apology IF you are under 30/

          • Libertybelle

            How big of you. Not.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            I keep thinking some people on the right have actually ethical reasons for objecting to the left. However, you have proven yourself to be a moron here.

          • Libertybelle

            We could discuss it in terms of right and wrong if the political terms right and left confuse you. That might be easier.

            Right: protecting the unborn. Wrong: exterminating them. Right: upholding the Constitution. Wrong: usurping it. Right: opposing all forms of slavery. Wrong: supporting welfare slavery by the federal government.

            The smart people know that the Democrats (leftists in America) support the wrong things.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            My mother was the ADC nurse for Ashtabula County, and worked at the Planned Parenthood clinic. She fantasized about a waiting room where she could put those welfare mothers and they would be somehow imperceptibly zapped sterile.

            Then she got “the blood of Jesus” all over her, was “born again,” and decided that even IUDs are baby killers. I told her I might accept this line if she gave a shit about the babies after they’d exited the womb. So don’t try this crap on me.

            Michelle Bachmann and some other useful idiot said during the last presidential election that the constitution is hard to read. Right. It’s a simple little pamphlet designed to uphold the plutocracy. There’s some nice things in there, like stay out of my underwear drawer, and that’s why I hold some respect for libertarians. I am a leftish who likes Ron Paul, although Rand can go fuck off.

            I’d say more, a lot more, about how stupid you are, but you are obviously too stupid to get it, so why bother?

          • Libertybelle

            Perhaps you have mommy issues that cloud your judgment.

            Let me distill and extrapolate your “moral” “reasoning” with an analogy. According to your standard, I should pay to take care of thieves so they would not rob and steal. It is my responsibility to take of thieves in order to prevent them from bad consequences.

            Wow. I have a big responsibility in the world to clean up after people who make the wrong decisions. Who knew! Here I thought my doing no harm to others was enough. Silly me.

            It would seem that the stupid people are the ones who think or assume they know for sure every single one of the 50 million plus innocents snuffed out in the womb by abortion mass murder would have been neglected and been a burden on society.

            The most such imbeciles (the abortion supporters) could prove is that some of them MIGHT been a burden.

            Hitler too thought certain groups ought to abort as well for the very same kind of burdensome reasoning.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            Oh what bullshit. “Christians” like old mommy–and you, apparently–want women to have children as a punishment. What people decide to do is none of my business. All you are worried about is your money. This line is old and really, really nasty. I’ll bet you show lots of cleavage and pack a gun. Your type is, um, never mind. Go scan the Bible for reasons to hate.

          • Libertybelle

            If women don’t want to have children they should not have sex. But I realize this is a difficult concept for science deniers.

            I don’t have money to worry about. It is the people who promote abortion who are worried about the money, which is why they ask me to fund someone else’s baby if I don’t agree to let them kill it.

            It is a kind of reverse extortion.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            There’s this part in the Bible where God tells Adam and Eve to procreate. But you’re saying no? Bad girl! It’s a sin against nature. And yes, all you are worried about is the money. And I’ll bet you’re frigid. So if you can’t enjoy it, nobody else can, right, girly?

          • Atomsk

            I can’t believe someone can seriously write that first sentence down. “If women don’t want to have children they should not have sex.”

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            I know these types pretty well. I used to have to suffer them at holiday dinners. You would not believe how sickening that was! Well, maybe you would.

          • Atomsk

            Well, I’d probably find them pretty annoying for other personal reasons too :-/ And it sounds a bit sad because (I know this is patronising) the stuff she says is all pre-made and sounds more like Stockholm syndrome stuff than authentic opinion. I mean, she obviously isn’t even a real beneficiary of the system and seems to be ideologising her own oppression.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            For an intellectual engineering type, you are amazingly perceptive! And compassionate! Are you a poet? If not, start writing some and send it my way!

            Look at what she just wrote to me: “If sex was so fun men would not likely have to beg, borrow, steal, bribe, ply booze /drugs, traffick, or pay for it like they must.” Was I right? Frigid.

            But she is, in a way, right. The Bible does try to bind people together in monogamy. But you must realize that this was a punishment when God threw those two into the brambles.

            Most women are frigid, I’m afraid. It’s because all little girls are raped, if not physically, then emotionally: the Barbie dolls alone do this to them. And a whole lot more. I tried to keep my daughter from Barbie dolls, and guess what my “Christian” sister gave her when she was two.

          • Libertybelle

            I’ve heard things like that over and over and over again. It is a cliche. Against my own interests, blah, blah, blah.

          • Libertybelle

            I never implied that it was wrong to procreate. The mass murder abortion folks would be the ones guilty of opposing that by stopping procreation through abortion. The issue is the stupidity of people who have sex, get, pregnant, then want a do over by murdering someone else who was innocent of the act.

            If sex was so fun men would not likely have to beg, borrow, steal, bribe, ply booze /drugs, traffick, or pay for it like they must.

            Is it, nonetheless, a natural desire of both sexes meant to enrich life and in fact produce it. It can be pleasurable but it comes with profound consequences that are belittled by viewing it as entertainment.

            That is why the bible sets parameters for it and seeks to protect it through the institutions of marriage and family as outlined.

          • Atomsk

            While in reality, if you’re a middle class USAn or above, you cost hundreds of times as much to the world as what you can, even in the ideal case, give back with your own work. And this is more of an understatement than an exaggeration.

            I mean, you do make it *much* easier to understand – and sympathise with – USAn overpopulationists.

          • Libertybelle

            You cannot compare incomes between countries and say they are equivalent.
            This is because economic systems are different. Monetary values are different. Spee is different.

            In some places of the world, the number of goats one possesses expresses wealth. I don’t have a goat.

            My grandmother had land, a well, and an outhouse, but no electricity, no car, no refrigerator. But she had everything she needed and was not in debt.

            Most Americans are in debt to keep up with modern life. I have to have a phone for work or I get fired. I cannot get to work without a car, yet I don’t want these things. They are too expensive. In some parts of the country it is prohibitive(through regulations) to generate your own electricity. You might get condemned by the city if you disconnected from the public utilities. A local lady is having trouble with something like that right now. This is coercion, of course, and it is extremely expensive.

            I suggest many of the simpler ways are richer and cannot be compared to the crazy and expensive artificial life in America. But it is next to impossible to buy your way out of it unless you are….rich.

          • Atomsk

            You cannot compare incomes between countries and say they are equivalent.

            I’m not comparing income, I’m comparing effect on other people and the environment in general, and dependence on exploitation of the rest of the world. I never mentioned income and I’m not comparing relative wealth. I also understand the structural dependence issues of modern society (hence “middle class and above”). You were talking about “paying for” someone else’s abortion or “funding” their children that I had to point this out.

          • Libertybelle

            You implied income by bringing up the middle class. I was responding directly to the previous post that said all I cared about was my money. The only way I get that is through my income.

            If we go with your silly scheme, then I don’t cost others more for the way I live than it costs me.

          • Atomsk

            Bullshit. If you “go with my scheme”, you’ll see that even you cost a lot more than most of the people and I explained why. But apparently you believe in magic, you believe that you can make things true just by saying stuff. And the entire “I pay for thieves” crap was started by you so the “all you care about is your money” stuff is not exactly unsubstantiated.

          • Libertybelle

            But the thieves analogy wasn’t posted to you. It wasn’t about money either. It was an analogy about a corrupt fantasy/fiction and “moral imperative” of making others pay for the irresponsible conduct of others.

            Seems you missed the point.

          • Atomsk

            I’ve read through your posts above this one again and no, I’m afraid I haven’t missed your point :-/

          • Libertybelle

            You appear to be arguing with yourself.

    • dreamjoehill

      Did liberals bring Africans to America in chains?
      Did liberals implement Jim Crow laws to oppress blacks?
      Your allegation that the civil rights movement caused the breakup of black families is utter ahistorical bullshit that you shit out of your stinking NAZI hole. Slavery and social and economic oppression caused the instability of black families and it started long before civil rights.
      You fake a certain concern for black families, but it’s obviously false cover for your vile, hateful racism.
      What a PIG!

      • Libertybelle

        Stop being so hateful and stop your lying. You are as hateful as a slave owner.

        • dreamjoehill

          “You are as hateful as a slave owner.”
          You mean the ones that you defend?

          • Libertybelle

            I never defended slave owners.

      • Libertybelle

        I am sorry you reject the facts. But the black family was more intact when they were (sadly)oppressed.

        The civil rights movement was contaminated by the welfare state. And it was the welfare state that destroyed the black family. Along with the liberals sexual “revolution”.

        You are a typical liberal, full of hatred and bullying.

        • dreamjoehill

          Did Liberals bring Africans to America in chains?
          Your foolishness and deceit are almost amusing, but your defense of Slavery & Jim Crow completely disqualify you and shred any pretense of credibility;

          • Libertybelle

            Hey fool, the British brought them over.

          • Atomsk

            Not that Americans had much against it.

          • Libertybelle

            Over 90 percent of the Atlantic slave trade went to Latin America. Go yell at them. The founders of this country tried to stop it from the beginning.

            The people who support slavery today are the Democrats with federalized welfare programs. Yell at them.

          • Atomsk

            Over 90 percent of the Atlantic slave trade went to Latin America. Go yell at them. The founders of this country tried to stop it from the beginning.

            “Tried to stop it”….while also taking advantage of it. What an ignorant asshole.

            The people who support slavery today are the Democrats with federalized welfare programs. Yell at them.

            I actually do, but regardless of this, you couldn’t really explain what you mean by this sentence or support it with facts, because you’re talking out of your ass.

          • Libertybelle

            You don’t appear to be interested in explanations. You seem to have more fun with personal attacks.

          • Atomsk

            No, actually, I am very much interested in explanations, it’s just that you’re incapable of reasoned discussion. You make bullshit claims that you do not support (about the USSR, leftists and commies), misuse and abuse words to fit your points (claiming that Romney and even Hitler were “leftists”, defining leftism as “warmongering” and the rest of your sophistry) and when I point this out, you claim it’s “aggression and coercion”.

          • Libertybelle

            It is not that I don’t support my claims. It is that you don’t believe them. And then you get mad. LOL

            Hitler, Mao, Marx, Stalin: all foreign leftists promoting or committing mass murder of civilians and rejecting liberty.

            For example (and there are many more): Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Bush, Romney, McCain, Biden: all American leftists. All support criminal wars and the totalitarianism required to maintain them.

            None of them right winger AMERICANS. Woodrow Wilson was as pious, prim and proper as Sean Hannity. Both of them are leftist Americans.

            Leftism in America expresses itself differently than overseas because our government is different. But it is still leftist for the sake of argument. Unless you wish to discuss right and wrong. Which you think is irrelevant.

            By the way, the right wing is nearly extinct in America.

          • Atomsk

            It is not that I don’t support my claims. It is that you don’t believe them. And then you get mad. LOL

            No, you actually do not support them. You equivocate, twist words and lie.

            Hitler, Mao, Marx, Stalin: all foreign leftists promoting or committing mass murder of civilians and rejecting liberty.

            While Americans provoking a coup in Ukraine or invading Iraq (oh I know: Bush is also a leftist!) based on a lie are all pro-liberty. But of course you can just handwave away anything you don’t like as “leftism”.

            For example (and there are many more): Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Bush, Romney, McCain, Biden: all American leftists. All support criminal wars and the totalitarianism required to maintain them.

            Yep, it’s this easy: just create a new category of “people I dislike”, give it the “leftist” label with no base in reality and repeat it often enough so that at least you believe it yourself.

            None of them right winger AMERICANS. Woodrow Wilson was as pious, prim and proper as Sean Hannity. Both of them are leftist Americans.

            This may be true in your dreams but certainly not in the real world. Political orientation doesn’t work the way you think it does.

            Leftism is at the very least socialism, and socialism is about public control over the means of production. That is it. None of the people you listed supported anything like this. Some of them are slightly to the left, at least in rhetoric, to others, but all of them are right wingers.

            Leftism in America expresses itself differently than overseas because our government is different. But it is still leftist for the sake of argument. Unless you wish to discuss right and wrong. Which you think is irrelevant.

            Nope, you’re just following the idealist “method”: you build up your concepts first to support your ideology and then you distort facts to fit these concepts. Combine it with general ignorance about the rest of the world along with quite a bit of arrogance about judging it and we get…you.

            By the way, the right wing is nearly extinct in America.

            Many things are extinct in the USA or are going to be soon; the right wing is sure as hell not one of it.

  • Libertybelle

    And when the Tea Party folks gathered together peacefully to organize themselves on behalf of the republic to restore its precepts and Constitution, what was Mr. Finkelestien’s opinion of that? Did he agree with Obama’s administration that the peaceful gathering of law abiding citizens is nigh onto TERRORISM?

    How is it law abiding Americans who do not murder people are the terrorists and the blacks who commit an outrageous amount of murder against civilians are not?

    Black civilians in America have waged a one way race war against white civilians for over 50 years. How is that not terrorism? Instead, person supporting the US Constitution, working hard, putting their noses to the grindstone, obeying the law–promoting liberty, freedom of speech, limited government power–they are deemed the terrorists.

    And the real terrorists are burning things down, raping, and killing the innocent.

    • dreamjoehill

      The Tea Party types were gleeful about the violent destruction of the Occupy movement. You bigots are only concerned about maximizing your own power and could care less about the rights of anyone that isn’t a conservative.
      Your allegation of a one way race war against whites by blacks is absurd racism. The mass imprisonment of black men stands as utter repudiation of your racist garbage, you stinking NAZI asshole.

      • Libertybelle

        You are a nut. Normal people know it.

        • dreamjoehill

          Normal people aren’t hateful racists

          Go crawl back into your hole Libertybelle

          • Libertybelle

            Stop the hate.

          • dreamjoehill

            The time has come to hate the haters, the racists, the bigots, the apologists for racist murder.
            You are poison.

          • Libertybelle

            Hahaha. You got caught hating. Now you have to justify it.

          • Libertybelle

            Your hate is the poison you consume. It will consume you.

          • dreamjoehill

            I am hardly committing evil by being hostile to you and your blatant, hateful racism.
            Why don’t you run along. you’re stinking up the neighborhood.

          • dreamjoehill

            You are a disgrace to the word Liberty.

        • dreamjoehill

          Blah blah blah

  • Libertybelle

    Also, if whites in America have had enough of the genocide being perpetrated upon them (they will soon be a minority) will Finkelstein defend them if they rise up to oppose “their oppressors”?

    Fat chance.

    • dreamjoehill

      Whites perpetrated a real genocide in the US against the native population. Your comment is screaming bigoted lunacy, and has no place in any reasonable debate on immigration.

      • Libertybelle

        Oh yes, whites knew there was a large population of Indians all across the vast swaths of the North American continent. They knew this because they stopped by the Visitor Center on their way in and picked up a few Rand McNally maps, little TeePee key-chain fobs, and some satellite images of the whole territory.

        There were ports,docks, houses, villages, lighthouses, roads, schools, churches, and cities all along the coast to tip them off.

        And when they found this obvious civilization, they quickly booked a flight back to Europe, so as not to be rude and stay.

        NOT

        LOL

        • dreamjoehill

          Little piggy, your snout is covered in blood and shit, as you employ every hateful lie to justify the genocide of the American Indians and the enslavement of Africans.

          • Libertybelle

            Since I never justified those things that makes you the liar.

          • Atomsk

            Do you think if you wish hard enough, all evidence of your stupidity, sophistry and malevolence disappears from here?

          • Libertybelle

            I would rather be stupid than vicious like you.

        • Atomsk

          I’d love you to show me how this post is not racism/white supremacism. As for your “sarcasm”, please search google images for “come over and help us” and contemplate the first few results.

          • Libertybelle

            Show me how it is white supremacism.

          • Atomsk

            Your post reeked of white supremacism and looked down and ridiculed indigenous civilisation.

            More importantly, disregarding this issue, you haven’t addressed the fact (made quite clear by the infamous Massachusetts Bay seal from 1629) that whites knew about the natives and in fact used them as a pretext for colonisation.

          • Libertybelle

            Whites did know about the immigrants from Asia (Indians)when they arrived around 1600. But they had no clue how many there were since they had no idea how big the land was (nor did they know even after Lewis And Clark nearly TWO HUNDRED YEARS LATER. By then it was too late to stop the flow of humanity.

            Your seeming faked outrage is anachronistic. And it really is funny because you seem as if you believe the Europeans had good maps, satellite images, CNN reports, and state department websites outlining the demographics, customs, and institutions of the land-bridge immigrants from Asia known as the American Indian.

            It is absurd to pretend because whites found people here and no civilizations with institutions they were familiar with to indicate there was a government to contact or subjugate, that they knew what lay before them. It is a fact they had no idea.

            It seems to be that you wish to gin up hatred of whites NOW for something that happened long ago, which they had nothing to do.

            If so I think it smacks more of hate and brown supremacism.

          • Atomsk

            Unbelievable.

  • Harlan County

    Finkelstein and Gandhi in the same article, of course I’m interested.

  • Rehmat

    Dr. Finkelstein is at a loss to understand the true nature of Gandhi. He told Chaim Weizmann, president of WZO in 1930s that German Jews should apply peaceful protests to gain their lawful rights in Nazi German instead of immigrating to British occupied Palestine.

    Former New York Times executive editor Joseph Lelyveld in Gandhi’s biography ‘Great Soul: Mahatma Gandhi And His Struggle With India’ – has claimed Gandhi to be a sexual weirdo, a political incompetent and a fanatical faddist – one who was often downright cruel to those around him.

    The author also claims that Gandhi at one point fell in love with and left his wife for Dr. Hermann Kallenbach, a German Jewish bodybuilder and architect. He also claims that when Gandhi was in his 70s and close to leading India to independence, he encouraged his ­17-year-old great-niece, Manu, to be naked during her “nightly cuddles” with him. After sacking several long-standing and loyal members of his 100-strong ­personal entourage who might disapprove of this part of his spiritual quest, Gandhi began sleeping naked with Manu and other young women.

    • Libertybelle

      I have heard similar claims about Ghandi. I would not doubt that modern academe (experts at deception and dishonesty) have tried to whitewash him.

  • Libertybelle

    Also Ghandi got it wrong or perhaps the interpretations of his thoughts by others were wrong because violence is violence. There are times when it is justified and times when it is not.

    All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder.

    If it is true that all people have a right to self determination, then whites in America have a right to use violence against the illegal alien invasion perpetuated on them by the government. That they have not yet done so against this clear case of genocide is a testimony to their patience and humanity.

    When the Immigration Act of 1965 was made law, legislators promised the American people that the Act would not change the ethnic make up of the country. 50 years later and we can no longer recognize ourselves. The promise was broken. We continue to be flooded with people wholly in like ourselves and are denied self determination.

    Governments are guilty of genocide (it does not have to entail bloodshed) when they take acts to in part or whole reduce a population. The other requirement is that is has to be intentional. Who keeps the numbers on our demographics? The federal government, who keeps letting the invaders stay despite the cries of protest from Americans! The federal government. These actions combined fit the legal definition of genocide and the denial of self determination.

    In 1965, Americans never, together, voted or clamoured to make whites a minority in their own country. Perhaps is leftist scholars in America and academe addressed the crimes against humanity in their own country (crimes which they often support) they might not have so much time to be busy-bodies in other people’s affairs overseas.

    • Atomsk

      If it is true that all people have a right to self determination, then whites in America have a right to use violence against the illegal alien invasion perpetuated on them by the government. That they have not yet done so against this clear case of genocide is a testimony to their patience and humanity

      Only if they first do everything in their power to stop their government perpetrating significantly worse atrocities to the world, including most of the immigration sources which also causes most of the immigration. This includes paying reparations to dozens of countries, opening up intelligence archives, prosecuting a few thousand people, removing military bases from all over the world and so on.

      So let’s recognise the your post for what it is: ignorant, self-absorbed protofascist bullshit.

      • Libertybelle

        I am a right winger and I am opposed to international interventionism. This is why I opposed Bill Clinton in Kosovo and Iraq (his policies led to the starvation of 500,000 children). And Obama intruded into Ukraine (conducted a coup there), Yemen, Libya, Pakistan. Obama lied about Syria (he wanted to attack them ). He lied about Putin. He nuts.

        He is a typical left winger like George Bush.

        • Atomsk

          Democrats are not the left, not even close. They’re liberals and liberalism is the central ideology of capitalism. As you said, they can be as big warmongers as Republicans. If you think this is bad, you should look more to the real left instead of the more extreme right.

          • Libertybelle

            Perhaps you confuse classical liberalism with modern liberalism in the United States. Classical liberalism (similar to what our founders in the USA promoted). They supported individualism, liberty, and free enterprise with a rabid emphasis on private property. Democrats: aka leftists aka liberals aka progressives abhor these ( like Hitler did). He hated liberal ideas and western civilization too, just like a Democrats. And of course Democrats (lefties) are thieves, thus they completely hate private property. This explains their lust for confiscatory taxation.

            If lefties in the US believed in free enterprise and liberty (as opposed to fascism/leftism/socialism) they would have never entertained Obamacare (bearing down on all of us here at gunpoint or else. And only they have entertained it. The GOP completely opposed this leftist fascism over and over again.

            The Dems would never have advocated social security and thousands of other fascist inspired takeovers of private enterprise. But they did. This is because they are not classical liberals like our founding fathers.

            Only the GOP, in the main, has opposed these takeovers. So much so that the Dems could be counted on each election season to beat GOPERS over the head for trying to reform these social programs and accusing them of throwing grannies and children under the bus.

            All the war mongers are leftists no matter what party they are in.

          • Atomsk

            Capitalism is about private control over means of production to produce private profit. Both parties share this view and support it with all their power. The difference is in concrete alliances with concrete subgroups of the ruling class – and technique to manage the people.

            Democrats: aka leftists aka liberals aka progressives abhor these, like Hitler did. He hated liberal ideas and western civilization. He too was a left winger.

            This immediately disqualifies you from any serious discussion. I mean, at least pretend to have a remote idea of what you’re talking about.

            If lefties in the US believed in free enterprise and liberty (as opposed to fascism/leftism/socialism) they would have never entertained Obamacare (bearing down on all of us here at gunpoint or else. And only they have entertained it. The GOP completely opposed this leftist fascism over and over again.

            Except, of course, Mitt Romney implemented this same plan in 2006 in Massachusetts. Maybe you’re not aware of this, but that person is a Republican to some degree.

            I’d also appreciate it if you didn’t talk about stuff you clearly have *no clue about*, like “fascism/leftism/socialism”. I am Hungarian and lived a bit during the Communist era and this completely ahistorical idiocy really pisses me off. TBH, you sound stupid enough to believe that the US defeated Hitler.

            The Dems would never have advocated social security and thousands of other fascist inspired takeovers of private enterprise if they were classical liberals like our founders. But they did.

            They advocated it because there was a crisis of capitalism, resulting from its very nature, and that was the only way they could manage it at the time. It actually worked.

            All the war mongers are leftists no matter what party they are in.

            Maybe read up on this a bit. I mean, I know it’s convenient for ignorant Westerners – especially USAns, so conveniently isolated – to mix together fascism and leftism, but in actual reality, they’re the extreme right.

          • Libertybelle

            Romney is a leftist. So what is your point? That was my point and you made it for me.

            Furthermore, it is unlawful for the feds to run an Obamacare program, but lawful for the states to do it. The federal government was never granted the power to enact a program like Obamacare, but the states may of they choose and the people of Massachusetts chose it. That you don’t seem to understand this would definitely disqualify you from debating the topic.

            If the Democratics believed in private enterprise they would not be taking over private enterprise sectors in health, education, and so forth. And their attacks on private business is also seen in the draconian laws and regulations they put on small operations that drive them out of business.

            Dems want big corps they can control through tyrannical and illegal federal laws and regulations. And the sooner they eliminate small businesses, the sooner the Dems can drive all workers into large corps where business rules are federalized and under control of their fascist overlords in DC. This is fascism, not free enterprise.

          • Atomsk

            Romney is a leftist. So what is your point? That was my point and you made it for me.

            Here, that is what you wrote:

            If lefties in the US believed in free enterprise and liberty (as opposed to fascism/leftism/socialism) they would have never entertained Obamacare (bearing down on all of us here at gunpoint or else. And only they have entertained it. The GOP completely opposed this leftist fascism over and over again.

            Maybe remember what you write next time.

            Furthermore, it is unlawful for the feds to run an Obamacare program, but lawful for the states to do it. The federal government was never granted the power to enact a program like Obamacare, but the states may of they choose and the people of Massachusetts chose it. That you don’t seem to understand this would definitely disqualify you from debating the topic.

            I don’t really care about your equivocation about what’s illegal and what isn’t. The program is the same, Romney is a Republican and he introduced it first in Massachusetts. You said “only democrats” supported it – which is clearly bullshit.

            But apart from this, Romney is not a leftist. I know it’s convenient to simply declare everyone you disagree with as a “leftist”, but all this results in is that you will not be able to discuss anything with anyone – twisting words around and removing all their actual meaning will not lead to meaningful communication. This is an obvious sign of lack of intellectual integrity and discipline.

            If the Democratics believed in private enterprise they would not be taking over private enterprise sectors in health, education, and so forth. And their attacks on private business is also seen in the draconian laws and regulations they put on small operations that drive them out of business.

            So why are private enterprises giving billions of dollars to Democratic politicians? Are bankers and IT billionaires idiots? Do you think you know the interests of “private enterprise” so much better than private enterprise itself?

            Dems want big corps they can control through tyrannical and illegal federal laws and regulations. And the sooner they eliminate small businesses, the sooner the Dems can drive all workers into large corps where business rules are federalized and under control of their fascist overlords in DC. This is fascism, not free enterprise.

            Sorry, are you expecting me to defend Democrats? I won’t, even when you bring up stuff that wasn’t even true half a century ago – as far as I know, many, many large “entrepreneurs” that have destroyed tens or hundreds of thousands of small businesses vote Republican. Like the Waltons. So once again, you’re talking out of your ass without any idea of reality.

          • Libertybelle

            I did not make it clear: I was referring to congress (and not unemployed former governors).

            NOT ONE GOPER SENATOR IN CONGRESS VOTED FOR OBAMA CARE. Only one GOP congressman did. Romney was not in congress at the time of the vote. He was not a senator nor a congressman. And the GOPERS have tried numerous times to repeal Obamadoesntcare.

            Why do rich people donate to Democrats? To get the poor off their backs and put them onto the middle class to suck them dry until near dead. For the most part the rich Democrats don’t want to help the poor. So when they support a Democrat they support a perverse Robin Hood scheme that keeps their money safe and plunders the little guy on behalf of the poor. It is not idiotic; it is crazy smart. And diabolical too. Not to mention criminally minded.

            Right now-today-Letterman, Buffet, Soros, the Kerry’s, Pelosi, Gates, the Obama’s, Ophrah,Corzine, Michael Moore, Bloomberg, the Clinton’s, Hollywood, Streyer, and all the other rich leftists could, over night, open up dozens of small businesses in the hardest hit areas in Baltimore to provide jobs for the unemployed. But they don’t! They, instead, prefer to fund a gang of thieves in the Democratic Party who will stick a gun in my face and take my money to flush it down a government hole never to be seen again. I suppose they think this will provide them cover while they live lives of lavish extravagance having tricked the poor into believing they care.

            It gets the hounds of hell (the Democrats/mafia/IRS, etc) off their backs. And the simpletons who benefit from these bribes and handouts think it is compassion.

            The Walton’s? Those left wingers? LOL

            You do know they are a corporate member of the Council On Foreign Relations, right? That is a radical leftwing group if ever there was one. I get the feeling you think left wingers don’t like money. That is funny. Hilarious.

            And a left winger IS someone who disagrees with me, because I am a right winger. If they do disagree with me on certain key issues it automatically puts them in the lefty column. And it doesn’t matter what party they belong to.

            Perhaps you missed the knockdown drag out fight last century between the Eastern Establishment Rockefeller wing of the GOP and the Goldwater/Schafly conservatives? I did not.

            The Goldwater wing has been destroyed. The only trace of the conservatives that remained in the GOP died when Ron Paul was rejected. Everyone still standing in the GOP is leftist.

            I consider the war mongering (I am not a pacifist) and overthrowing our Constitution to be the tipoff clues that define what a leftist is in America. By this definition this would include Bush, Cheney, Obama, Santorum, the Clinton’s, Sarah Palin, Sean Hannity, all of the mainstream media including Fox News and Salem Radio Broadcasting. There are no conservatives (right wingers) in congress at this time.

            The GOP is leftist lite. That is only slightly better than the heavy left in the Democratic Party. They are Nazi types. Big time.

          • Atomsk

            You have no idea what the “left” is and you’re so absorbed into infighting within the ruling class that you see nothing else.

          • Libertybelle

            I understand what left and right are in the US. And also I understand they are not precise terms. They do not easily translate to over seas politics either. I certainly don’t believe you have the right to tell me what words mean. That sounds like coercion and aggression.

            If you wish, we could just limit the discussion to right and wrong. But perhaps that would confuse you?

          • Atomsk

            I understand what left and right are in the US. And also I understand they are not precise terms. They do not easily translate to over seas politics either.

            No, you’re an ignorant but conceited Westerner who actually knows nothing whatsoever.

            I certainly don’t believe you have the right to tell me what words mean. That sounds like coercion and aggression.

            Making sure that people understand each other by understanding the content of words is “coercion and aggression”? So, you spouting bullshit and lies based on your “personal” interpretation of words that do not coincide with anyone else’s (or with facts) is what?Freedom?

            If you wish, we could just limit the discussion to right and wrong. But perhaps that would confuse you?

            No, it wouldn’t “confuse” me, these are just not usable terms in this discussion.

          • Libertybelle

            Very funny.

            Right and wrong are ” not usable terms”.
            Who says so? You? It would seems this entire article is about right and wrong, but King Atomsk says I ought not discuss it.

            Speaking of conceit.

          • Atomsk

            They’re not usable terms in this discussion we are having, because we’re discussing what things actually are not our opinions on their morality. But I guess partially quoting the least important sentence in my post was the best that could be expected from you.

          • Libertybelle

            Ah, the dictator of discussions is making the rules now?

          • Atomsk

            We were talking about facts: what the left actually is, who are leftists and and what they support and I don’t see how this could be discussed if we just “limit the discussion to right and wrong” which was your suggestion.

          • Libertybelle

            I did not ask to “just” limit it to right or wrong. I suggested it as an alternative to discussing this through the prism of right versus left. The reason I suggested this is because right and wrong are more precise concepts than right and left.

            I don’t like using the terms right and left because they are imprecise. But since many people get hysterical when bringing up the topic of right and wrong, I have no recourse but to use the imprecise terms of right and left.

            There has to be a way to somehow define the great and obvious swathes of philosophical thought adhered to by different groups. And since these are not scientific terms they will never be satisfying to human conversation. I didn’t create this situation, I am just trying to navigate it as best I can.

          • Atomsk

            I did not ask to “just” limit it to right or wrong.

            Maybe that’s what you meant, but this is the exact quote:

            If you wish, we could just limit the discussion to right and wrong.

            The reason I suggested this is because right and wrong are more precise concepts than right and left.

            What do you mean exactly? This looks like the complete opposite of realty. “Right” and “left” are actually pretty clear political concepts which you are simply misusing; while “right” and “wrong” are mostly relative and subjective.

            Again. You can use the words “right” and “left” however you want. You can define “left” as warmongering; but in this case, you cannot mix and match other people’s definitions whenever the results don’t fit your wish. You must look at whether the entity is “rightist” or “leftist” in this regard. According to this, for example, the USSR will be *way* to the “right” of the USA. According to this definition, hippies and peaceniks are “rightists”. I mean, sure, go ahead – it is somewhat confusing but whatever. But you must be *consistent* with this definition. You *cannot* use other people’s classifications. Your use has to be *consistent*, even if it is different from other people’s use.

            If you want to do that, you must demonstrate that the common definition of “leftist” *coincides with your definition*. Which you simply cannot do.

            There has to be a way to somehow define the great and obvious swathes of philosophical thought adhered to by different groups. And since these are not scientific terms they will never be satisfying to human conversation.

            The way to do that is not oversimplification, ignoring historical facts and disregarding common knowledge. It is through accumulating more knowledge and this means using more complex concepts. You will not be able to force history into a simplistic theoretical framework, which is what you’re trying to do.

            I didn’t create this situation, I am just trying to navigate it as best I can.

            No, you really aren’t. You’re just trying to look at it in a way that seems comfortable for you. You’re trying to force facts to fit the shapes of your predetermined theoretical framework.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            “Coercion and aggression”? Cripes, woman, you want to most aggressively coerce your evaluations of right and wrong on everyone! And given the frankly foolish things you have said here–revealing that you actually aren’t the Mistress of the Universe, oh dear!–I think you should go back to your bible and look up that passage about not judging, lest you be judged. And hopefully, for you and me and everyone else, you might shut up.

          • Atomsk

            First, about Nazism. In actual historical reality, the main enemy of Nazis and who ultimately defeated it was Communist USSR. Nazis persecuted communists (just like the vast majority of the allies of the USA in whatever it took part in). After the war, the USA integrated many Nazis and a lot of Nazi methods (like eg. “counterinsurgency”) into its imperial toolset (eg. in Vietnam) and it sheltered many nazis directly or indirectly . After the war, the US was always a natural ally to fascist dictatorships, from Franco’s Spain through the Greek junta to Suharto. None of whom are in any way leftist AND who all actively persecuted leftists. In both history and ideology, nazism and actual leftism are opposed – while your country’s right (which by your definition is somehow “lefistt”) has almost always supported it.

            I consider the war mongering (I am not a pacifist) and overthrowing our Constitution to be the tipoff clues that define what a leftist is in America

            Technically, if you define “leftist” as “warmongering” (let’s ignore the US constitution part, as the vast majority of the “leftists” in the world are not USAns so this in itself is meaningless), you either have to show that what this definition covers *coincides accurately* with the traditional definition of leftism – or accept that your word “leftism” is simply a homonym of the other “leftism” and *doesn’t denote the same content*. “Libertybelle-type-leftism” and “generally-accepted-leftism” may have the same word form but their content *does not coincide*. The vast majority of traditional leftists: socialists, communists and anarchists would not be included in [LB]”leftism” while people whom none of the traditional left would consider an ally in any way (which includes almost all the people you listed) would be. (In fact, half of your definition would not even make sense, considering that most “leftists” are not USAns.) That’s technically acceptable, but in this case, you should NOT mix the two definitions and always make clear which one you’re using – otherwise you come to the objectively false conclusion that eg. Bush and Chavez are both “leftists”, on the same side, which is obvious nonsense.

            This “definition” is your private definition and has nothing whatsoever to do even with self-identification, values, objective strategies, organisations, policies, nothing in the real world. This definition would make the USSR, which got out of the first world war, “rightist”, but would make Hitler a “leftist”. It would make, as you said, all of your presidents leftists, even though none of them were even remotely so based on general understanding.

            This may be because of a simple methodological misunderstanding – or because a conscious choice. If it’s the former, it’s so simple and shallow that you can surely understand it and correct it quickly.

          • Libertybelle

            Nazis and commies are the same side of the coin. You learn that when reading Mein Kampf. Hitler detested the “universal” “socialist” (I.e. The communists). He considered them the Jewish led too. But Hitler, like Mussolini, was a self confessed socialist. I consider socialists and commies left wingers. Of course,all these terms are dicey, but they are the best we have.

            And we know what the acronym NAZI stands for. It was leftist academe in America that tried to cover up their role in supporting the bad guys overseas back then. They went on to propagandize American school children for decades that Hitler was a right winger. He wasn’t. US educators and historians were merely trying to cover up their complicity in the horror that was the Marxism that swept across the planet.

            I am always a conservative in a country that values liberty and individual rights. And a liberal in one that does not. Since my country is based on these principles, I continue to “conserve” them. If I was in North Korea, the last thing I would do is conserve that political philosophy.

            I am a conservative only because of what I am preserving specifically in America. Our founders were classical liberals in order to combat despotism. I would be that too should America become the despotism Obama and McCain desire. I conserve in relation to the philosophy I am promoting.

            And in my case, the philosophy I am conserving is western civilization in nature, Christian, free market, liberty, this Republic and its Constitution.

          • Atomsk

            Only someone in the centre, detached and insulated from all of reality could seriously believe this utter ahistorical moronic nonsense. Disgusting. Would be less so if you kept it at home, but you’re exporting it everywhere.

            US educators and historians were merely trying to cover up their complicity in the horror that was the Marxism that swept across the planet.

            So, what *is* Marxism? Do you even know anything about it? Or only the dumb lies invented by your own propagandists?

            I am always a conservative in a country that values liberty and individual rights. And a liberal in one that does not. Since my country is based on these principles, I continue to “conserve” them. If I was in North Korea, the last thing I would do is conserve that political philosophy.

            Actually, your country is based on well-developed European capitalism: colonial expansion, killing off all natives, slavery, environmental destruction, exhausting the richest untouched “uncivilised” continent’s material wealth, and now militarism and of course imperialism. You’re far away from your victims, so you can safely ignore them, but that’s what both conservatives and liberals are standing for.

            I find the comparisons to NK from Americans particularly disgusting and stupid. The sense of superiority is one thing, that’s something you find everywhere, but the historical ignorance makes me vomit.

          • Libertybelle

            My country threw off the colonialists. Kicked them out. I suppose I made that up too?

            And Marxism? It is slavery and indeed and fact a form of colonialism. Are you defending that while you condemn the colonialists?

            I will say it again. There is a reason Hitler became a hysteria in America when what went on with him was not as bad as what has gone on under Mao, Stalin, and the like: the left in US academe needed to cover up its complicity with Stalin.

            It continues to support it to this very day. Since the left in America has controlled the media and the schools for most of the last century, it is ridiculous to pretend that they do not rewrite history to divert attention from their complicity.

            My victims? How can they be MY victims when I oppose US aggression? Perhaps your vomit is clogging your brain.

          • Atomsk

            My country threw off the colonialists. Kicked them out. I suppose I made that up too?

            As I don’t really consider the infighting between different sections of European colonialists “throwing them off”, and considering the current state of native Americans…yeah. It wasn’t you who made it up, though.

            I will say it again. There is a reason Hitler became a hysteria in America when what went on with him was not as bad as what has gone on under Mao, Stalin, and the like: the left in US academe needed to cover up its complicity with Stalin.

            You are talking out of your ass and making up things you have *no clue about*. You lie about stuff you do not understand, including countries you have no relationship to. That Hitler was “not as bad” as Stalin and Mao “and the like”, which is a pretty huge lie, is typical neonazi nonsense. Absolutely disgusting.

            It continues to support it to this very day. Since the left in America has controlled the media and the schools for most of the last century, it is ridiculous to pretend that they do not rewrite history to divert attention from their complicity.

            You are talking out of your ass and cannot support this stupidity in any way.

            My victims? How can they be MY victims when I oppose US aggression? Perhaps your vomit is clogging your brain.

            You oppose nothing because you know nothing. And as long as you’re supporting the Republicans (or the Democrats fwiw), you actively support US aggression, you clueless moron.

          • dreamjoehill

            So who is right wing then? Other than you?

          • Libertybelle

            Patrick Buchanan, Paul Gottfried, Phyllis Schlafly (though she trusted the CIA), Joe Sobran, etc. These are the people Bill Buckley purge from influence in the GOP. They are dying off. He purged the conservatives from the GOP. Buckley flooded the GOP and the budding right wing media with leftists (neocons like Bill Bennett, Podhoretz, and Kristol). They were big government war mongers (just like FDR).

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            Did I ever tell you, Atomsk, that I really, really love you?

          • Atomsk

            Well, thanks, you are the first one to say this to me 😀

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            And your emoticon is a Disneyeseque lie, but I love you anyway.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            I’m sorry. I think I am breaking under stress. Forget everything I’ve said, or at least try to.

          • Sometimes emotions get the best of us and cloud rational judgement. It’s called being human and it’s nothing to be ashamed of 😉

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            OK, Atomsk, I am finally going to tell you why I said I love you. Sorry about that jab at your emoticon–that was really stupid and cruel of me. I’m just profoundly disgusted for personal reasons and some of that disgust spilled out randomly. Mea culpa!

            Although I have a great appreciation for Marx, I almost never like Marxists. Too many of them are blinded by ideology, and I have to say I would be very afraid if they ever got into power. Linh Dinh published my views on this from an email I sent him, if you are interested in my take on ideologues: http://linhdinhphotos.blogspot.com/2015/02/i-wrote-to-elizabeth-hayes.html

            So that’s one reason I said I love you. Another is that you write so beautifully and clearly, and humanely. Also, in my crystal insanity, I’ve come to realize that if you tell people you love them, most of them will run away in terror, maybe call 911 to get the police to lock you up. They’ll think you mean that you want to fuck them, and/or fuck them over. I didn’t think that would be your response, and it wasn’t.

          • Atomsk

            This is why I hate not having private messaging on disqus. This is probably going to be my single most embarrassing post ever, but hey.

            OK, Atomsk, I am finally going to tell you why I said I love you. Sorry about that jab at your emoticon–that was really stupid and cruel of me. I’m just profoundly disgusted for personal reasons and some of that disgust spilled out randomly. Mea culpa!

            Hehe, well, what I wrote is true, I’m somewhat, errr, “special” in real life (not physically, it’s all my fault), and I also always misuse the 😀 emoticon, so there really wasn’t much of a chance of not misunderstanding my post. It doesn’t make any sense if you don’t really know me (and I wouldn’t wish that for anyone). Honestly, I actually don’t even see why you were cruel, so really, no need to apologise. I probably shouldn’t have responded at all but I was happy about that post and lost it a bit.

            Although I have a great appreciation for Marx, I almost never like Marxists. Too many of them are blinded by ideology, and I have to say I would be very afraid if they ever got into power. Linh Dinh published my views on this from an email I sent him, if you are interested in my take on ideologues:http://linhdinhphotos.blogspot

            I can’t really disagree with this at all, but I could come up with any number of more or less believable rationalisations for it 🙂

            In any case, I don’t really understand, but it’s true: Marx, at least in his writing, is really open minded (although he doesn’t hide it when he disagrees with something), while many Marxists aren’t. Orthodox Marxism in EE – while the small remaining holdouts do feel somewhat refreshing now compared to the even worse liberal-conservative idiots (I mean, 70-year-old hardliner commies who couldn’t even study English know way more about TPP/TTIP than most young people in the new greenish/liberal parties – and act against it) – was fundamentally inflexible and imo not exactly Marxist in many ways (economic decisionmaking, organisation of production and especially education (although free or very cheap food for kids and universal access along with healthcare was clearly a huge progress) etc).

            So that’s one reason I said I love you. Another is that you write so beautifully and clearly, and humanely. Also, in my crystal insanity, I’ve come to realize that if you tell people you love them, most of them will run away in terror, maybe call 911 to get the police to lock you up. They’ll think you mean that you want to fuck them, and/or fuck them over. I didn’t think that would be your response, and it wasn’t.

            Well, I’m a pretty cold and cowardly person. I never heard this from anyone and never said it to anyone either. This is just how it is. And thanks for praising my writing, I don’t think I deserve it though.

            Uhh, I don’t think I should press the Post button.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            But you did press that button, which proves that I’m right and you are just deluded as to who you are. But don’t feel bad; that is the universal human condition.

            This, I think, is the appropriate song:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIdc0NGumVc

          • oneski

            Great song. Transformer’s timing began a much needed change to pop/rock!

            FWIW, I enjoy the atomsk’s knowledge, contributions and, influence. I think know appreciation is vital to any communication and relationship.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            I enjoy his take immensely, and yours as well, and many other brilliant posters here and elsewhere. If this has created an addiction in me (oh no, not ANOTHER one!), oh well. I love to hear people thinking clearly; it brings me joy, and there are some enormously clear-headed people posting.

            Don’t tell anyone, but I actually write under a pseudonym; my real name is Purple Haze.

            I’ve always loved Lou Reed. The album that really slayed me, though, was his opera Street Hassle, which came out during my first major depression and saved my life. Another opera, Tom Waits’s Franks Wild Years, came out nine years later and saved me again.

          • Atomsk

            And regarding that (pretty awesome btw) post on linh dinh’s blog, is ICH informationclearinghouse? That place is a bit disturbing tbh.

          • Elizabeth Hayes

            Yep, that’s the one. Some of their articles are excellent and they seem to have less of an agenda than other sites, with more varied views, but the people who post on there give me the heebie-jeebies!

            Thank you for the compliment. Linh Dinh brings out the best in me. He is an awesome man and an awesome writer, very diverse. One of the great things about the Internet is the ability to connect with people with heart and sense, because I can’t seem to find many around here, except at the bus stops.

          • If the USA has a bona fide left, it’s hiding extremely effectively. The neo-lib Dems are as much of the government as the GOP and the TEA (Taxed Enough Already) Party. And what’s “the government”: [T]he U.S. government has conferred upon itself the right and freedom to murder and exterminate people “for their own good.” – Noam Chomsky

            Rhetorical hyperbole?

        • dreamjoehill

          I actually agree with you here.
          Do you frequent antiwar.com?

          • Libertybelle

            Oh yes. They provide a great sevice to mankind. I don’t know how they can keep their sanity logging the daily tragedies throughout the world year after year. There is always excellent writing. And I find It to provide a fair presentation and analysis of the evidence. I like that they revisit topics as further evidence is uncovered.

            I cannot remember where I first learned about them. Perhaps Paul a Craig Roberts? It was many years ago. I don’t always agree with their analysis, but their dogged pursuit of keeping track of people who use force against others is vital to us all.

          • dreamjoehill

            I read Roberts regularly. Great stuff.

          • Libertybelle

            He is an interesting man. A deep thinker. I think he is totally freaked out by what has happened in this country with its war machine and the rise of the police state. I think he might trust the Russians too much, but with what is happening in DC, I can understand how that might happen.

    • epazote

      Friday 22 April 2015 Taos, New Mexico
      NANC (Native American National Council) weighed the issue of the USA’s large, illegal European population, some 240 million of *you people*. After a long debate, NANC decided to extend a road to citizenship for those of European ancestry who have no criminal record(s) and/or contagious diseases.

      I will remind you that the indigenous people of the western hemisphere (the america’s) are not “white/caucasian”, and that it is Europeans that have invaded these lands . Moreover, you white Europeans seized power via wholesale genocide of the native peoples, slavery, theft of land and natural resources under the rubric(s) of The Doctrine of Discovery, Manifest Destiny and The Monroe Doctrine

      *You* are a pox on humankind, and quite frankly, we are fed up with your notions of being “exceptional” and “superior” to those outside your own tribe of white Euro barbarians. Don’t like it here in the america’s?….pack up and return to your own ancestral homeland, where you belong

      thepoliticus.com/content/native-american-council-offers-amnesty-240-million-undocumented-whites

      epazote,
      A proud Rappahannock

      • Libertybelle

        The “Indians” are immigrants.

      • Harlan County

        I didn’t think there were any Rappahannock’s left sort of like the Mohican’s or Susquehannocks .

        • Harlan County

          After a look at Wikipedia I see they are alive and kicking. I knew George Washington grew up near the banks of the Rappahannock river, recently they have uncovered the family homestead, near Fredericksburg. But the Rappahannocks would have been gone from there by the time he came along. Also noted that Mildred Loving was a Rappahannock descendent.

        • epazote

          There are less than 300 of us, reservation has been reduced to 150 acres in Virginia
          My dad was in the military, I was raised in San Diego.

    • fritz

      Hear . hear ! The Prince of Khazaria lectures about His Royal STUPIDNESSES own Genius !

  • Libertybelle

    Also, I was wondering. Does Mr Finklestein believe the Muslims should return the lands they forcibly stole from the Christians in the Middle East? These Christians were oft themselves Arabs and surely more native born than the European Jews who came to the Middle East around 1947. Today, the Persian people are under forced occupation by Muslims.

    Where is the outrage against the Muslims? Nowhere to be found. Certainly not at the UN. And absolutely not to be found in the halls of western academe.

    If a complaint can be made against the establishment of Israel under the gun of the British, then so too should one be made about the lands in that area which are also contrived such as Jordan, Iraq, and so forth.

    We hear so much whining from the left about western imperialism, but virtual silence about Muslim imperialism and hegemony so vast that it numbers some 55 nations, nearly a quarter of the whole.

    It is rank hypocrisy. Start demanding the same of Muslims that you demand of Israel or prove yourselves disingenuous.

    Or butt out of it (my recommendation).