Major General: Why Are Domestic Government Agencies Purchasing Enough Lethal Ammunition to Put 5 Rounds In Every American?

Why Do They Need So Much Ammunition?

Preface: There might be an innocent explanation. But given recent trends, this is worrisome.

Retired Major General Jerry Curry wrote Friday:

The Social Security Administration (SSA) confirms that it is purchasing 174 thousand rounds of hollow point bullets to be delivered to 41 locations in major cities across the U.S.


Those against whom the hollow point bullets are to be used — those causing the civil unrest — must be American citizens; since the SSA has never been used overseas to help foreign countries maintain control of their citizens.

What would be the target of these 174, 000 rounds of hollow point bullets? It can’t simply be to control demonstrators or rioters. Hollow point bullets are so lethal that the Geneva Convention does not allow their use on the battle field in time of war. Hollow point bullets don’t just stop or hurt people, they penetrate the body, spread out, fragment and cause maximum damage to the body’s organs. Death often follows.

Potentially each hollow nose bullet represents a dead American. If so, why would the U.S. government want the SSA to kill 174,000 of our citizens, even during a time of civil unrest?


If this were only a one time order of ammunition, it could easily be dismissed. But there is a pattern here. The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has ordered 46,000 rounds of hollow point ammunition. Notice that all of these purchases are for the lethal hollow nose bullets.  These bullets are not being purchased and stored for squirrel or coyote hunting. This is serious ammunition manufactured to be used for serious purposes.

In the war in Iraq, our military forces expended approximately 70 million rounds per year. In March DHS ordered 750 million rounds of hollow point ammunition. It then turned around and ordered an additional 750 million rounds of miscellaneous bullets including some that are capable of penetrating walls. This is enough ammunition to empty five rounds into the body of every living American citizen. Is this something we and the Congress should be concerned about? What’s the plan that requires so many dead Americans, even during times of civil unrest? Has Congress and the Administration vetted the plan in public.


All of these rounds of ammunition can only be used to kill American citizens, though there is enough ammunition being ordered to kill, in addition to every American citizen, also every Iranian, Syrian or Mexican. There is simply too much of it. And this much ammunition can’t be just for training, there aren’t that many weapons and “shooters” in the U.S. to fire it.


We have enough military forces to maintain law and order in the U.S. even during times of civil unrest.


This is a deadly serious business. I hope I’m wrong, but something smells rotten. And If the Congress isn’t going to do its duty and investigate this matter fully, the military will have to protect the Constitution, the nation, and our citizens.

Why are government agencies doing this?

Major General Curry asks a troubling questions:

We have local police, backed up by each state’s National Guard, backed up by the Department of Defense. So in addition to all these forces why does DHS need its own private army? Why do the SSA, NOAA and other government agencies need to create their own civilian security forces armed with hollow nose bullets?

This may sound like a conspiracy theory …

But remember that Senator Daniel Inouye said in 1987:

There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself.

The Federal Reserve – which is not exactly federal (and see this)- also has its own police force.  See this and this.

Chalmers Johnson called the CIA the President’s private army.

And that’s nothing compared to JSOC.  As John Glaser wrote in February:

For the past decade, we’ve seen the rise of a secret, unaccountable U.S. military force … Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC) is an unwieldy private army at the command of the President, and him only. And they conduct military and spy missions all over the world, never receiving formal congressional approval ….

“Without the knowledge of the American public,” wrote Nick Turse back in August, “a secret force within the U.S. military is undertaking operations in a majority of the world’s countries. This new Pentagon power elite is waging a global war whose size and scope has never been revealed.” According to a recent Congressional Research Service report, JSOC forces “reportedly conduct highly sensitive combat and supporting operations against terrorists on a world-wide basis.” As the New York Times this week reported:

The Special Operations Command now numbers just under 66,000 people — including both military personnel and Defense Department civilians — a doubling since 2001. Its budget has reached $10.5 billion, up from $4.2 billion in 2001 (after adjusting for inflation).Over the past decade, Special Operations Command personnel have been deployed for combat operations, exercises, training and other liaison missions in more than 70 countries. Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, Special Operations Command sustained overseas deployments of more than 12,000 troops a day, with four-fifths committed to the broader Middle East.

JSOC operates outside the confines of the traditional military and even beyond what the CIA is able to do.


But it goes well beyond the war zones. In concert with the Executive’s new claims on extra-judicial assassinations via drone strikes, even if the target is an American citizen, JSOC goes around the world murdering suspects without the oversight of a judge or, god forbid, granting those unfortunate souls the right to defend themselves in court against secret, evidence-less government decrees about their guilt. As Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Seymour Hersh said at a speaking event in 2009:

Congress has no oversight of it. It’s an executive assassination ring essentially, and it’s been going on and on and on.***

Under President Bush’s authority, they’ve been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list and executing them and leaving. That’s been going on, in the name of all of us….

[Marc Ambinder told Wired]:

There are legal restrictions on what the CIA can do in terms of covert operations. There has to be a finding, the president has to notify at least the “Gang of Eight” [leaders of the intelligence oversight committees] in Congress. JSOC doesn’t have to do any of that. There is very little accountability for their actions. What’s weird is that many in congress who’d be very sensitive to CIA operations almost treat JSOC as an entity that doesn’t have to submit to oversight. It’s almost like this is the president’s private army, we’ll let the president do what he needs to do.

An End-Run Around the Constitution?

Remember, we’ve gone from a nation of laws to a nation of powerful men making laws in secret.  A nation where Congressional leaders themselves    aren’t even allow to see the laws, or to learn about covert programs. A nation where Congressmen are threatened with martial law if they don’t approve radical programs.

National security powers are being used to help big business, to the detriment of the American people.

Veterans returning from the front lines are labeled “potential terrorists”, to the horror of both the Republican and Democratic leadership.

This is not surprising, given that tyrannical regimes always crumble when the footsoldiers refuse to carry out draconian measures.

Indeed, active duty military personnel are big Ron Paul supporters.  And see this.  Because liking Ron Paul – as well as liking liberty or the Founding Fathers – may get one branded as a potential terrorist these days, there may be some friction between active military folks and the government as well.

We’ve been in a continuous state of National Emergency for 11 years.  The Constitution has so thoroughly been shredded that it is – literally – unclear whether we are still living in a constitutional form of government.

Because military folks are sworn to defend the Constitution, many still would not allow the imposition of overt, full-scale fascism without a fight.  See this and this.

As such, Major General Curry’s speculation is chilling, indeed:

Is the purpose [of the lethal ammunition purchases] to kill 174,000 of the nation’s military and replace them with Department of Homeland Security (DHS) special security forces, forces loyal to the Administration, not to the Constitution?

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  • crazy_inventor

    a quick search reveals :

    With more than 200,000 employees, DHS is the third largest Cabinet department, after the Departments of Defense and Veterans Affairs.

    The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,000.

    half of American households have a gun

    German police used 85 bullets each in 2011

    Of the 85 bullets used in 2011, 49 were warnings shots, 36 were aimed at criminal suspects, 15 people were injured, and 6 were killed.

    In the United States no statistics are readily available on the amount of ammunition used annually.

    How many police officers are employed in the United statesThere are as of 2006


    640,000 X 85 = 54.4 million bullets

    200,000 x 85 = 17 million bullets (all 3 have ordered about 2 billion bullets)

    270,000,000 x 85 = 23 billion bullets

    roughly –

    we outnumber them by 1000 times, we have 10 times more ammo than they do, we could put 50 rounds into each of them

    • Gordon

      Maybe they shouldn’t behave in a way that would cause them to fear having “us” put 50 rounds into each of them?

    • Tobias

      “…we outnumber them by 1000 times, we have 10 times more ammo than they do, we could put 50 rounds into each of them”

      You sound so tough stating that, but the reality is totally opposed: Americans are a bunch of stupid animals easy to manipulate and subdue. In fact, these slobs are extremely gullible and incapable to think for themselves.

      It will be very interesting to see how you behave when law enforcement agents ask you to give up your guns…are you going to resist? Most likely, people like you are just going to comply and cooperate with the authorities.

      In Martial Law only the fools will die.

      • B

        Thanks for the comment DHS.

        • Mel

          That was hilarious!

          We know every alphabet agency out there who receives money from the U.S. government is under Department of Homeland Security. We also know DHS is positioned in various locations throughout the U.S. for terrorist related threats or so goes the story anyways.

          We know some of these ongoing fires are just a smoke screen so were not as stupid as you say we are. I only hope those in the know will do the right thing. If your not one of them then to hell with you and i mean that literally.

      • Larry

        Most gun owners I know would absolutely not turn in their guns. That would be the one action that would start a civil war. It’s not a matter of being tough. It is non-negotiable.

      • Voodoo

        I guess that makes me a fool.

      • OathKeeper

        Tobias, either you are not an American, have never served in our military if you ARE an American, and probably a liberal Obama Supporter who would, as a sheep, go to slaughter should this government order it. If mass collection of arms is known nationwide, a civil war truly will ensue, and I know too many bubbas who will not tolerate it, as many military members who took the same oath I did to protect the citizens and the constitution, NOT a corrupt government.

        • Bloodless Coup

          I hope to God that you are right, but I am inclined to believe that you are wrong.

          As confirmed by a criminal investigation, Obama has a forged birth certificate, a stolen social security number, and a forged selective service registration record.

          Congress continues to turn a bland eye to this, and refuses to look at the evidence.

          Meanwhile, Attorney General Eric Holder, a suspected criminal, is also still sitting at the helm of the Department of Justice.

          I have no confidence in our corrupt Government, and even less confidence that American People will life one finger to stop them.

          In fact, I fully expect Obama to be re-elected.

          That is, if Obama does not simly declare himself a dictator, and establish Martial law first.

    • jjip

      You haven’t factored in everything. A smaller organized and strategic group could do alot more damage. And then seize more ammo and weapons to boot.

    • Daniel Ferguson

      hollow point bullets are to fight back the annunaki that will be here
      soon, why would you need hollow points on humans ? ( )

    • FactChecker

      You wrote: “German police used 85 bullets each in 2011”

      According to a quick Google search, German police in 2011 all together used 85 bullets *total* fired at or around criminal supsects. *Total*. Not each. Search on “German Police Used Only 85 Bullets Against People in 2011” to confirm that. So, it is not per police officer.

      That total is for all police in a country with a population of about 82 million, or one quarter of the USA’s. By that standard the total number of bullets all US police together should have fired around suspects should be 340 per year. I’ve heard the average US LEO only fires their gun in the line of duty once or twice in a career. Even at that rate, as a ballpark calculation, with about 600,000 LEOs in the USA, with a 20 year career, that would be about 30,000 shots fired per year in the USA by LEOs, or about 100X that of Germany per capita.

      Google YouTube for: “German Police Fired 85 Bullets All Year, US Police Use 90 on 1 Person”

  • Reply to crazy inventor

    Are you sure about that that you can outnumber them? Well maybe if white America (gun loving christian folk) can ally with the blacks and Mexicans something that i don’t think will ever happen.

    • James Zagfil

      War doesn’t have a color…other than blood red. People will unite once it all hits the fan… there will be no dems, repubs, independents…just a populace with war being waged on them…those who want to live free will fight until they are free.

    • fred

      Why are you turning this into a race and religion issue?
      This has nothing to do with either.

  • Frank Freeman

    Why 5 rounds for every American?
    It’s obvious – bureaucrats are as incompetent at markmanship as at everything else

  • According to a 28 year long congressional staffer, both House and Senate, the GOP are the warmongers, while the DEMs are their enablers.

    It is learned behavior, not genetics.

    But it has become a habit.

  • crazy_inventor

    > when law enforcement agents ask you to give up your guns

    I don’t have any guns. I’m just running the numbers. These fear mongering psyop pieces they pelt us with are sooo old. They spend over a billion dollars a year on influence operations, welcome to the brave new future.

    – The real problem is endless wars, the bankster crooks, and big energy.

    Everything else is a side show..

    • OathKeeper

      Big energy is a problem? How so? Do you walk to work, live by candle light at home to protest “Big Energy” or do you blame the world market for the price of oil when countries like India and China are buying 10 times more oil than they did 30 years ago? Do some research on why oil is the price that it is, and understand economics 101.

  • Drutch

    It has become obvious that a military coupe is necessary. I don’t think the people would receive that kindly though. Most of us are still too brain washed to realize who the enemy is. Problem is our boy are all away from home hidning behind rocks in the desert. When the cat’s away….

  • Andre in L.A.

    This morning, in the Harbor Gateway area of Los Angeles, I watched an attack chopper fly by. This was an Apache, complete with chin turret and guns. I have seen Hueys staged at the Goodyear blimp site nearby during “Homeland Security” drills, but never Apaches.

  • amicusbriefs

    Government sources indicate that the rapidly increasing Body Mass Index of Americans and the widening expanses of soft tissue will require more projectiles to take down. Additionally, head shots are now useless, as there’s just nothing there.

    • david

      outstanding observation.

  • William merrifield

    It’s not gonna be a cake walk. With up to 30,000 drones in the skies, ability to sever communications, ms media complicity, tepid Americans still in denial, etc….., it’ll be a turkey shoot for most. This DHS , sister agencies, corporate mercs, UN and NATO troops and others are and have been doing their homework. Best chance for the citizen is enlightening the masses, hoping for military dissenters fore they take their oath seriously. You know this new world government has one major flaw, in fighting amongst whose gonna be the leader. In this train there’s only so much room to ride in first class. This may be their demise. Also, even though the minions have been compartmentalized, surely they have an iq above 50 and intuitive enough to know that they will be expended further down the tracks. It’ll be interesting. As for myself, I’ve been dead for awhile, when I concluded that the nation I loved could committ these most heinous acts domestically and around the world, it ripped my soul out. You see, I was the dummy, I believed in this nation, the shining light on the hill, land of the free, home of the brave. I was raised in a marine Corp family and quite frankly I’m mighty pissed off. To think that they’ve committed our youth, our future to these wars of aggression only for corporate reward is repulsive.


    When Mom & Pop businesses begin to buy up all the available ammunition too, maybe the Fed will make a big deal out of it. But until then, the media is downplaying the signifigance of the acronym agencies having carte blanche to spend valuable cash reserves to arm the Fed secretaries and the clerks against American citizens; Patriots; We The People.

  • robnume

    What the hell does the SSA need ammunition for? This seems to be a message for those of us who are set to begin collecting the Social Security Insurance, for which I’ve paid dearly for 50 years. We know that Obama is planning, with bi-partisan collusion, to kill – they’ve already raped – SSI payments to American citizens after his re-election. Voting for Mitt Romney or Barack Obama is electing the same suit. Republicans and Democrats are the SAME party! This country is a restricted meritocracy. There is not and never has been an American Dream!! The real sheeple are those who are ideological and ill-educated and who are stupid enough to believe that there are ANY fundamental differences between these political factions. Divide and conquer is their strategy and you deserve what you get if you do not see this fact. As the great Upton Sinclair (“The Jungle”) stated, ” It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on his not understanding it”.

  • crazy_inventor

    > Do you walk to work, live by candle light at home to protest “Big Energy”

    The fallacy of false dichotomy is committed when the arguer claims that his conclusion is one of only two options, when in fact there are other possibilities.

    Half Of Germany running on Solar power!!! 2 Jun 2012

    When is America going to get its head out of the sand and get with the program?

    Last Weekend, Half of Germany Was Running on Solar Power » the path made clearer for nations seeking to switch to renewable energy.

  • Red Blooded American

    If you notice, this is all happening just in time to prepare for the November elections. Obama has said repeatedly that he will enact martial law when he deems it necessary and has passed laws that will allow him to arrest and indefinitely detain American citizens without cause or trial or even charges filed against them, he has built camps around the naiton to house them, and he has tried everything he can think of to outlaw guns and ammo. He plans to either assert his power after being reelected or, if defeated, to stage a coup and take the power he thinks he deserves. I’ve seen this coming for a long time, and I have prepared myself for it. I hope that I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am. The Reckoning is coming, people.

  • Andrew

    You can see that our government has a plan to take over the world one country at a time. That includes the U.S. itself, as well. The only real question is what are we going to do about it? The sad part is there is still so much faith in the political process and people are going on about their lives as though nothing is happening or will affect us.

  • People in the United States don’t even know that they don’t control their own Military! Watch
    Senator Sessions Drills Leon Panetta People also
    don’t know that the President of the NRAfighting over the UN’s Small Arms Treaty that was scheduled to be signed
    on the 27th of July 2012. The Treaty never passed. However, mainstream media never reported it either. I think our leaders in government are expecting a Revolutionary War, because their secrets to corruption are out. Google “Brian Parent 911,” and I’m on Facebook fighting daily against all their corruption and trying to keep people informed! The Ammo thing is just another piece to a giant evil puzzle!

  • Robert Cook

    I do not own nor have I ever owned any firearms. Nontheless, I do not have concern about the 174,000 rounds of hollow point ordered by the Social Security Administration. If you assumed that SSA has, say 200 offices, each employing two armed officers, this would amount to about 435 rounds per officer. I think we can reasonably expect each officer to fire their weapon at a firing range at least once a month, so allowing 435/12 = roughly 36 rounds for this purpose each month seems eminently reasonable. As to why hollow points – they have greater stopping power than military ammunition. If you have to shoot some crazed individual in a SSA office you don’t want to use military ammunition, as it might simply pass thru their body and allow them to continue to endanger others. I see nothing whatsoever to be concerned about as far as the SSA ammunition order is concerned. The Homeland Security ammunition order, however, seems inexplicible.

    • Skeptic Marine

      “If you assumed that SSA has, say 200 offices, each employing two armed officers, this would amount to about 435 rounds per officer. I think we can reasonably expect each officer to fire their weapon at a firing range at least once a month, so allowing 435/12 = roughly 36 rounds for this purpose each month seems eminently reasonable. ”

      This is true, however, ball ammo is much cheaper, and more efficient for target practice / qualification. HPs are strictly anti-personnel, not designed for target practice.

  • Bloodless Coup

    The government could simply be trying to create a shortage of ammunition by buying it all up. They may also be trying to gain leverage with the ammunition companies by becoming their most important customers. When you have an account that is that big, you will do almost anything to keep it. At any rate they,it seems that they are making these bullet companies very dependant on government money.

    • Dexter60

      Interesting, but ignores the real question of what the justification s for the manipulations we are seeing from ‘our’ government.
      But to address those points:
      create a shortage — Too late for that; ammo from other counties out-numbers already what the agencies are asking for from domestic production

      gain leverage with the ammunition companies — Ammo is made to sell to cash buyers, leverage that; their most important customers — The ‘most important customers’ have bought about a billon rounds already

      they are making these bullet companies very dependant on government money — Funny thought, bullets were being made before we had a government ! In fact, simply because we had bullets the foundations of this government was brought into existence and thus also may be restored; again, this government is off budget and off the tracks and only now appears to recognize its own desperation.

  • Barnetnetdotnet

    I have the perfect solution, sell some of your toys and buy yourself a .50 BMG, ammo’s kinda expensive but it don’t take much for making an impression on bureaucrats with their 9 MM pop guns.

  • Klaus Krauthammer

    I agree that this horrible event of arming all agencies is for a false flag event to give BO the power for Marshall Law. I hope to God the military leaders are gravely concerned about a good possibility of a communist take over. I have read deep for decades and believe that the blood line vampire banking families who own the Fed Reserve are behind all of this and of course finance it off our ignorant tv watching backs. The Fed has created the illusion of a two party system for nearly 100 years. This is going to happen within two months if it happens at all.

    • Skeptic Marine

      You, sir, are a moron.

  • Andrew

    Anyone who knows handguns know that the ranting about “killer bullets” is hogwash. Hollow points are the pistol duty load of choice for police agencies. Consider that a range requalification is 50 rounds and is done four times a year: 200 rounds, times 5 years is 1000 rounds. So all of a sudden these large orders look a lot more reasonable: the DHS order includes the US Coast Guard! Also, police tactical teams shoot through a lot more ammo in training than regular police. Try 50 rounds weekly or 2500 per year for a tactical team member, times 5 years is 12,500 rounds and for a five person team, over 60,000 rounds.

  • cyberfish2

    Why is the government buying so much lethal ammo? Because, when the U.N. gun ban is finally negotiated and put into law, they are going to need it to take away the guns from perviously law abiding citizens. Will the Dept. of Homeland Security army really shoot armed citizens who refuse to surrender their guns? Remains to be seen, when the time comes – and it will. My guess is you bet yer a** they will.

    • See my above reply about TSA purchasing 1400lbs of high explosives.

      I don’t see how that could be used to confiscate guns. Something much bigger is in play here.

      • Chest Rockwell

        Are you kidding? What could possibly be bigger than disarming the population?

        Besides 1,400lbs of high explosives isn’t alot. Sounds like 1,400 breached entries.

        • Gun Owner

          they intend to ban these rounds on American soil as per the UN treaty Hillary signed. If they already possess them they will be grandfathered in.

    • Vico Confino

      It has already been ascertained in a survey that in order to keep their jobs. the majority will follow the order to shoot armed citizens and if no one is watching “unarmed citizens”. Also proven in Louisiana during hurricane Katrina.
      Time for the masses to stand up and be counted. Democracy taken for granted has been taken”
      Please don’t threaten me. You are already too late.

      • 19kilo51

        The National Guard did not confiscate civilian weapons. The NOPD and the sheriff of those affected cities might have. We had 76 SWAT troopers guarding the Superdome, the rest of us were running MRE’s and water or patrolling along Pontchartrain’s flooded neighborhoods. Some might have hoped for an Order to clean house in the 9th ward though. The deployment of the 82nd Airborne Div. to New Orleans brought lawlessness to a halt.

  • john green

    The usa should restrict the supply of lethal ammo by heavily taxing it.
    People should be encouraged to buy non/less lethal ammo instead.

    • Did you even bother to read the article?

      It’s the American Government that is buying billions of rounds of hollow-point aummunition!

      The government isn’t taxing itself. Govenment ammunition and explosive purchases are tax free.

      Why does the TSA need 700lbs of High Explosive Grade Ammonium Nitrate and 700lbs of RDX Plastic Explosives ? To protect airports using explosives ?

      Read the government purchase order yourself:

      What does the Department of Homeland Security intend to do with 176,000 rounds of
      M852 .308 Boat-Tail Hollow-Point (BTHP) Sniper Ammunition ???

      Purchase Order:

    • Mike R

      Have you seen the price of hollow point ammo compared to non hollow point? A box of 20rds of regular ammo is $6-12 for .223 caliber. A box of 20rds. of hollow point is $20+ for .223. that price difference is basically across the board for any caliber.

      • That applies to the public.Contracts in these amounts are not going to be priced at those levels.These orders represent long production runs at a greater margin for Federal/ATK.They are contributing to a buying frenzy that has dried up the the retail ammo supply and now components as shooters move into reloading their own ammo.Try to find any .223 Rem components or dies.Local law enforcement are being told by their vendors that there will probably be a six month wait for backorders to be filled.

    • wastedmercy3

      lol oh so only the criminals get to have the real ammo! good thinking remind me not to send my kids where you went to school! Lib jackass … learn civics!

  • Amy999

    I am totally agree with John’s point of view, There should be restriction on supply of Ammo as well

  • This is crazy! Everyone is always talking about putting an end to violence and gun control laws, but the government is purchasing ammo? When I say everyone I mean the political figures, if guns are such a problem in this society, they not to be not so accessible to irresponsible holders. Fitness Program

  • ignorance is bliss

    theyre buying those types of ammo because theyre going to outlaw those specific ones and realized they need them. So theyre stockpiling. And you know how goverment agencies work, if you dont spend the money in your budget, you dont get it next year.

    • GaltJohn1each

      where? other than NW next to Pendleton and Leguene et cetera and by now contractors would of spilled beans via CitizenBand…where 2 b stored for training? Hmmm

  • Jason

    I read the first few paragraphs and had to stop. FYI, those hollow-points are for use by the Office of the Inspector General within the Social Security Administration. Like almost every U.S. federal agency in existence, the SSA has an in-house law enforcement and investigative unit. This is by no means limited to the SSA; the Board of Education, EPA, and various other government agencies you wouldn’t expect have armed federal investigators.

    What’s particularly hilarious is that the Office of the Inspector General is primarily charged with investigating fraud and such within the Social Security Administration. So if by some contrived set of circumstances those bullets actually end up being used, they’re probably going to be used on a corrupt member of the SSA who has committed a crime and threatens the investigators.

    Also, get your facts straight on hollow-points. They’re not some magic death machines filled with anthrax. They’re an extremely common form of ammunition, popular among civilians and law enforcement. Of *course* the law enforcement arm of the SSA is going to use law enforcement ammunition, you nitwit. It’s not the Geneva Convention which bans them — it’s the Hague Convention. Kind of hurts your argument when you don’t bother to do basic research and jumps straight on the bandwagon, huh? They’re illegal for use in warfare (a somewhat silly rule in the opinions of many, but an old one that no one bothers with), not illegal in general.

    • it has ALWAYS been, from a law enforcement AND a military stand – MINIMUM FORCE NESSEARY, up to and including deadly force. When use of deadly force is authorized, the INTENT is to wound or disable. Thus full metal jacket ammo is the standard. The use of hollow points would void that stand.

      • Full metal jacketed ammo is not the standard for Law Enforcement in pistol and rifle calibers.All major forces and agencies issue or approve jacketed hollow points pistol ammo or bonded core soft point rifle ammo.FMJ ammo has poor terminal ballistics and can overpenetrate and hazard others behind the target.The FBI,Border Patrol,California Highway Patrol,Iliniois State Police and other agencies have developed JHP pistol ammo made to their specs by vendors like Federal and Winchester for the last 35 years.These loads have been adopted widely as department standards.Research Hornady TAPP, Winchester Ranger LE ,Speer Lawmen or Federal BP9LE ammo.The claim that law officers shoot to wound is laughable.Officers are trained to stop the threat by shooting to center mass. Exactly the way CHL holders and NRA defensive pistol courses are taught.None of your points ARE backed by real world fact.

        • Jason


          In other words, Rick, if a police officer is firing his weapon at someone then the time for less-lethal methods has gone out the window. He’s not necessarily intending to kill that person, but generally speaking that’s what happens in the process of stopping the threat. And I can personally assure you that the standard carry ammunition for law enforcement are hollow-points.

          • Texan

            I question the basis for these bureaucratic government agencies having their own paramilitary forces to begin with. We already have legitimate protection organizations that could be called upon in emergenciesor in iinvestigations, namely the police, sheriffs, FBI, US Marshals, national guard, and the military under martial law in hierarchy. It’s also much cheaper to outsource simple site security to private security firms. Might even stimulate the economy. LOL. I carried a weapon on the job for 27 years. We never used hollow point for range practice ever. Too damn expensive. If they bought training rounds, I’d believe them. But, something seriously stinks about this. I suppose we should thank DHS though for storing lethal “emergency” ammunition for the American people. In a crisis, we now know where to find ammunition. Don’t worry about Federal bureaucrats being reluctant to share their bajillion rounds of ammo with We, The People during a national or constitutional crisis. They are horribly outnumbered and outgunned…by We, The People. 🙂

          • Jason

            Ha! “Paramilitary” is a bit of a stretch. They’re criminal investigators with sidearms and perhaps a few pump-action shotguns. Hardly the stormtroopers you seem to be picturing. As far as those agencies you mentioned:

            1.) Police — Local/state jurisdiction only. They don’t have the ability to investigate federal Social Security fraud, for instance.

            2.) Sheriff’s Office — Same as above.

            3.) FBI — Yes, the FBI has a decent amount of jurisdiction in regards to investigations and often handles corruption and fraud cases. However, their hands are full. You know how much it would detract from the more important cases of counterterrorism and violent crime to have them investigating everything from environmental violations to education fraud?

            4.) Marshals — Again, strict jursidiction. Marshals track fugitives, provide security to federal witnesses and judiciary personnel, and that’s it. They’re not an all-purpose investigative force.

            5.) National Guard — Often deployed, so their availability varies. Besides, do you really want them being deployed all that often in the states for every little thing? They already have their tasks.

            6.) Military — Same as above.

            Sometimes security is contracted out, but it’s not always the best move for a number of reasons (trustworthiness, etc.). I’m gonna ignore that last part because conversations tend to go silly when a civil uprising against the tyrannical regime gets mentioned.

          • Guest

            I always love reading comments like this. Do tell, where they are storing this “vast stockpile” of ammo? You have no idea do you? How many gun owners are going to go get it with you? Far fewer than the touted 3% that showed up during the first revolutionary war. Please let me know when you set off for harpers ferry, I’ll be sure to stop by and put your preps to good use after the feds have mopped the floor with you.

          • critic

            An armed public faced with tyranny won’t have to go get it, we are the ones who make it, transport it to them and don’t forget, whatever we cannot find they will certainly be stupid enough to bring it to us if they are stupid enough to try to cut off the food supply and declare marshal law. BTW most police are NOT on their side and have publicly told them as much. You may not realize this, but there are already very large amounts of citizens who are organized against this very thing being presented by MG Curry Those who dream of disarming American citizens are suffering from serious delusional disconnect from reality. When those dreamers kick it off they will very rapidly resemble the French Aristocracy during the French Revolution.

            Caution: IF you REALLY want CHANGE that big it will come find you in short order.

            BTW, YOU have missed the point: HUGE ARMED and Hungry mobs always get what they want. If that is tested you will be amazed and overwhelmed by the size and strength of a truly crazed and hungry MOB made up of even just 20% of the population of a major city; that many crazed people really won’t even need modern arms to overwhelm the DHS and their backup, and that is merely the first order of events that will be initiated. Second will be that the public cuts off the FEDs supplies completely. Research that. Study insurgency. Brush up on soft and military coups as well. My bet is there is no way to do it, not even by bringing in a mercenary army of 10 million. The logistics will be impossible.

          • critic

            Yes, they are. Last time I checked any attempt to enforce a UN resolution on American Citizens is TREASON, even by legislation. This point will not be lost on the general public if this occurs.

      • Boogieman75

        WRONG! The intent is to stop the threat! FMJ, more so than JHP, tends to enter and exit causing minimal, threat stopping injurries since it is not designed to expand. The exiting by FMJ can result in hitting non threatening tragets, i.e. innocents at fairly significant distances beyond the intented target, this is seen as a civil liability as LEOs are responsile for every round they fire. The US Military uses FMJ as a result of treaties and conventions of long ago as it is seen as more humane as a resulty of its limited wound creating ability.

      • michael james

        I beg to differ when use of deadly force we are train to shoot 3shots at into a person. That is not close to anything but deadly force with extreme prejudice. Pfc Mj

    • Sixgun

      my 1911’s dont like the HP rounds, but all the revolvers eat ’em up. And sometimes hollow points are cheaper at walmart than round nose, depending on caliber. Of course now days everyone is going to critical defense or critical duty ammo made by Hornady. So maybe the feds just got a good deal on hollow points? Cheaper than the more expensive better stuff?

      • Jason

        The Critical Defense is okay stuff, although the penetration on some of the calibers leaves a bit to be desired. But yeah, it definitely wouldn’t surprise me. Budget may have had a very big part to play in this.

        • BoogieMan75

          Budget is absolutely a key factor, especially if they are “going green.” For example: frangible ammo is less reliable thatn “duty” style and prints and recoils differently as well. Perhaps the refferenced hollowpoint ammo is all copper, then they are green and practice with what they play with. Just food for thought really.

      • critic

        Yea, and apparently there will be plenty of those laying around to pick up if DHS is stupid enough to try it…lol

    • Sixgun

      my 1911’s dont like the HP rounds, but all the revolvers eat ’em up. And sometimes hollow points are cheaper at walmart than round nose, depending on caliber. Of course now days everyone is going to critical defense or critical duty ammo made by Hornady. So maybe the feds just got a good deal on hollow points? Cheaper than the more expensive better stuff?

    • George

      Jason: You are not as clever as you think you are. Are you a government employee?
      Hollow points make a small hole going in and make a huge hole going out you will not survive a chest shot, it will leave a hole the size of a soft ball. So don’t try to under play how lethal a hollow point really is. These government departments have no reason to have this type of ammunition, and you know it. I am wondering what your motivation is for your post.

      • Jason

        I am precisely as clever as I think I am, because I actually extensively research guns, ammunition, and related topics. You, clearly, have not. For one thing, not all hollow-points are created equal. The size of a hole made by a gunshot wound is affected by many things, not least of all is the caliber of the round. Yes, a JHP will make a larger exit wound than entry (assuming it exits to begin with). But to say it will always leave a “softball-sized hole” is hilariously untrue.

        Saying that it’s impossible to survive a shot to the chest from a JHP is also a blatantly stupid comment. It shows precisely how informed you are about this topic, which is to say *not at all*.

        Here’s a story about a man surviving a confrontation with the police in which he was shot multiple times in the chest and torso by officers. Guess what? They, like all cops do, were using hollow-points. A while back there was a man who survived being shot over 20 times by police in all areas of his body. JHPs are not magic death machines. They tend to be more effective than pistol-caliber FMJs in terms of wounding effects, yes, nor would I want to be shot by one. But they’re not the WMDs you seem to think they are.

        Why do the government departments not need these? They have to train, which involves actually firing large amounts of ammunition on a range. In many cases it may be cheaper or more efficient to use actual duty ammunition in training, as well.

        My motivation for the post is that people like you, who jump on the “The fascist government’s out to kill you all!” bandwagon. When the time comes to provide proof for these ludicrous claims, you throw out idiotic non sequiturs and red herrings while providing those fallacies with an emotional spin that’s completely unfounded by supporting research (which you never bother to do, naturally). When you get called on it, you throw out stupid posts like yours, which are equally unsupported by research. In other words, do a little research next time, you dolt.

        • Critic

          George and Jason:
          First: The Government has NO WAY to disarm a determined America. If they try it they will find that they are enormously out gunned, out-manned and will be out of this realm in a hurry, flat on the ground even if they had three times as many weapons, ammunitions, explosives and personel as they have now. Katrina is not a good example of the “Now we have a UN order so we will disarm our citizens”; Their real plan (and I have read it) is to cut off he food supply, declare a state of emergency and demand that everyone bring them their guns for food. What will then ensue is that 75% of the population will go berserk and the rest will get started leading those to REALLY RIOT. DHS and all that will be annihilated in very short order, with their insignificant numbers against huge rifle, pistol, and real weapons of serious destruction armed HUGE MOBS of desperate but fairly capable citizens who will all immediately realize that they are up against the real enemies of the USA and they are defending their families and freedoms not to mention they are coming to TAKE the food. The US population will immediately recognize this because it has been hyped for so long and they have watched it developing. It is way to late for DHS or some phantom army of fascists, John Q and Jane B Public are Armed, Stockpiled and Ready and Wiling.
          Second: Despite “Litmus tests” etc. the US Military will end up turning on the Government that attempts this in pretty short order. No reason to explain here, just believe it because that is fact, already proven AND the US military is aware of the so called plan, (which has been around for over thirty years, in various versions and retardedly enough, in print). So, you are both right and both wrong. BUT:
          Third: The issue that MG Curry is presenting is actually: “We no longer trust our Government. We do not understand them and their strange but familiar machinations and we can see where they may be headed and we are spreading the alarm, everybody get ready!” Exactly my point above. The initiative to attempt to disarm the US population is already doomed to fail and will really backlash right into the Executive Branch and the Government that is in place at that time. I for one sincerely hope that we never have a President foolish enough to attempt this because it will not be like the Civil War where the Treaty of Ghent was finally forced completely on the USG. This will not be brother against brother, but 250 Million against maybe 500,000. The 250 Million will largely be better armed, with more ammunition and btw these are the ones who grow the food, truck the food, store and distribute the food as well as the ones who manufacture the arms and ammunition, etc. MY advice to a government foolish enough to attempt it is: Good luck on the other side, good thing we can fit five of you traitors in each one of the coffins you bought with our money and we hope those things burn well because we will not bury you here and we hate to waste fuel on burning trash.

        • rhodaunit

          We have a second amendment. That is to safeguard ourselves against a tyrannical government. If the government has sling shots, all we need is sling shots, if the federal government has muskets, all we need is muskets, but if the federal government has fully automated weapons and hollow points and all we have are muskets, then we will be murdered by the tens of millions. For those that believe that the government should have a monopoly on force, read the second half of federalist paper number 46 by James Madison. “The purpose of the second amendment is to fight the fedral government if need arises.” Publius Huldah

  • Smorgasbord

    “Why do the SSA, NOAA and other government agencies need to create their own civilian security forces armed with hollow nose bullets?”

    When obama said he wants a civilian security force that was as strong as, and equally funded as the military, I knew he wants to do what Hitler did with his civilian security force.

  • Sixgun

    NOAA, SSA the USDA as far as I know can not arrest anyone. So I am thinking these agency’s are just shells and nothing more. Somebody is attempting to hide where all the ammo is actually going, and doing a poor job of it.

  • Will I. Benext

    At best our govt. is purchasing this ammo to sidestep the inability to to take guns and ammo away from the american public. At worse our govt. is getting prepared to launch war against the american gun owning public. Our current pres. as shown an uncanny ability to circumvent the laws of this great nation. We are now a socialist nation and are headed in a direction that Hitler could of only dreamed about. One only has to look at the record, Ruby Ridge, Waco, and even the Dorner affair. When police open fire on newspaper delivery people without knowing who they are shooting at. when they kick the crap out of suspects in handcuffs, when they aproach YOUR vehicle ready to shoot, it tells any intelligent person that our govt.on all levels sees the american public as thier ENEMIES. They will kill you for any reason that suits thier and cover their tracks by calling you a terrorist. Its that simple. Law enforcement and our elected leaders fear US.

  • Marcus Wrightmann

    174,000 rounds, divided between 41 locations= 4244 rounds per location. 10 armed field agents in each location gives each agent 425 rounds. I don’t know about the rest of you gun owners, but I can go through that in two sessions at the range. Four sessions, if I keep the practice drills pretty basic. The fact is these guys are required to qualify with the same ammo they carry.
    Theres alot of government weirdness going on… but this isn’t an example, sorry.

  • The only question that really needs to be asked is if these ammunition purchases are in line with the purchases of previous administrations. I would contend that they are not. Even under the “war mongering Bush” we did not see a build up of this sort. When we see our government procure 1.6 Billion rounds of ammunition, over 7000 fully automatic assault rifles and over 2000 armored assault vehicles, I would say the American people have reason for concern. This type of domestic military build up has never been seen in the history of this country. This, combined with the government’s attempt to disarm it citizenry, should give all freedom loving people pause.

  • Dan

    Now we have the evidence of Obama manipulating the IRS to squash the political participation of Tea Party groups in our 2012 election by eliminating them from raising legal tax free contributions, as 501C3 organizations. From USA Today: “There wouldn’t be another Tea Party application approved for 27 months. In that time, the IRS approved perhaps dozens of applications from similar liberal and progressive groups, a USA TODAY review of IRS data shows.”
    Additionally, spying on AP reporters and taping the Senate Cloakroom.

    Big Brother is here!

  • BoogieMan75

    Disappointing to see an ex-military man not understand the need for this ammount of ammuntion. Law and common sense liability protection dictate you train with ammunition before using it in the performance of duty. So, you can realistically say that no less than half of that ammunition is going be fired into the “berm.” As for each authority being “backed-up” by the next level above…this is ludacris. I work in law enforcement and higher-up, federal levels of “back-up” are at best hours away, and whatever you have better be worth their time. Firearms in the hands of stateside government officials are primarily for the potential use at a moment’s notice in a deadly force situation. As for the hollowpoint issue…plain and simple…they work better than ball type ammo and stopping threats. As a Marine and Law Enforcement Veteran, of the lowest ranking type, these numbers are actually near appropriate. As a trainer, I am constantly plagued by inadequate amounts of ammunition for proper, defensable training…I constatntly make-do with what I have (budget and stock alike) and hope that my officers take the time to get quality training on their own.

  • Steve Harper

    any and all laws passed to take your guns would be illegal, so either give up or fight it’s that simple, because if you let them take your guns then every thing else you have or ever hope to have will be gone dreams and all

  • Vico Confino

    Destroying the infrastructure of our country is the ultimate goal of power hungry bureaucrats. The hollow point bullet fiasco is only to distract the masses of what their real agenda is.
    As was pointed out, this 65,000 strong Homeland Security army is accountable only to itself. Not even
    Congress can question their illegal activities.
    Polluting, perverting and prostituting the laws of this country that were enacted to protect the aggrieved citizens are now being used to destroy any opposition that stands in their way.
    Like my twenty seven year old A+ rated business that has been targeted by Customs Border Protection by having all import shipments seized at port of entry in Miami, Fl.
    Give a CBP agent a badge and he thinks he is a judge. Give him a gun and he thinks he is the jury. Give him a bullet proof vest and he thinks he is bullet proof. While terrorists and illegals continue to flood our country, these “ground fodder recruits” earn their obscene salaries by carrying out the dictates of their employers.. (Average CBP agent pay is $85,000)
    All because an attorney was exposed for his illegal entry into a Federal lawsuit. His access to hi-profile
    Washington, DC crony’s resulted in allegations of conspiracy, complicity and corruption within these agencies that have banded together to destroy my destroy company (as threatened by the exposed attorney). Hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxpayer money is being wasted in this child’s vendetta to destroy my life, family and business. If you really want the truth, go and offer your comments.

  • James Smith

    There’s only one conclusion to come to….